@Vex-Man said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:
@pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:
In history – that is in a history when still anybody believed that there was a God or were gods – people already wanted to know. The idea of proving God seemed to be especially popular at the beginning of the last millenium. The first one to come up with such a "proof" was the monk Anselm of Canterbury. This is a short summary of his argument:
I see how many times you try to prove god. But of course all of your attempts are ridiculous. Try to differ between argument and proof, there is a lots of difference between both terms. I bet this argument is not free from flaws which ill prove for you. https://wikidiff.com/argument/proof
Note- You won't repeat god of gaps or argument from ignorance, divine fallacy, straw-man arguments, appeal to emotion, appeal to authority, appeal to logic, existential fallacy, argumentum ad populam, appeal to probability or any other logical fallacy as per as you did in previous topic. You should accept this guideline.
Sorry for the late reply, I've been very busy IRL. You should read what I write more carefully. I clearly said here that this is no proof at all. Also I wrote this before our conversation :yum:
- Everybody can agree on the following definition: God is that above which you can think nothing greater
This is not a correct definition of God. It is given by a Christian Anselm. Check definition with google. https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/god
You have a better definiton of God? I think this one is perfect. I mean of course there are other ideas of other God's like roman Gods or hinduistic Gods, but this is the perfect definition of the one absolute being, that fits also the christian God, the origin of all.
- Now think God like this, but think that he does not exist
Devil/satan is that above which you can think nothing more evil. Now think satan like this, but think that he does not exist
- Woops, you can think of something higher can't you? Because a God who does exist, is definitely greater than one who doesn't
You can something more evil cant you ? Because a satan does exist, is definitely more evil than one who doesn't
- Ergo: Our mind is not capable of thinking God without also thinking that he exists
Our mind is not capable of thinking Satan without also thinking that he exists
You have missed the point. Just because one island is bigger than the other does not mean it exists. Just because someone who exists is more evil than someone who doesn't, does not mean he exists. This argument works only with the God of above definition, and with nothing and noone else. If you do not agree, that just means you have not understood the argument.
Now for the million ₫ question (currency: vietnamese dong) : Why does this argument not prove that god exists?
Now for the million ₫ question (currency: vietnamese dong) : Why does this argument not prove that satan exists
Haha funny. There is no theist till the date who will accept both devil and god exist simultaneously. Try to differ both terms 'conceive' and 'real'. Devil, satan, angel, god are just concepts, it does not matter they come in our mind or not rather then they must really exist in physical world.
The argument does not prove that God exists, because it concludes from the pure world of thought to the real world. But other than that the argument is sound, and it does not work for Satan, because Satan is not that "above which nothing greater can be thought". It only works with God.
There are lots of believers and theologicians who both accept that God exists and the devil, for the devil is not defined as that below which nothing more evil can be thought. The devil is defined as simply a created being, like you or me, who has completely decided against God. E.g. evil itself is defined as the absolute absence of God. This is like with light (this comparison is an anecdote from Albert Einstein btw.), you can measure light, because it is something, it is real. You cannot measure darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light.
@steelfirehawk said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:
it's simply easier to allow oneself to believe
Believe is a faith without evidence. I refer you to differentiate some terms. Science is based on empirical evidences and theories. It is not based on imagination or faith.
It is also based on axioms, improvable assumptions based on... well nothing but the fact, that without them science does not make sense... but I do agree that simply believing something without any evidence or reason to believe is indeed irrational...
we evolved from monkeys to enable ourselves to be compulsive in the flesh like animals. People don't want to believe in God so they can do what they want without any regard to a higher power that judges purely, and righteously.
Morality does not stem from god.
Thinking about morality does not require God, true. But immorality requires you to either think that God does not care, to make up an unjustified concept of God that allows you to be immoral, or – the easiest – to think that God does not exist. It is not surprising that people statistically assume that atheists are more readily doing evil than believers.
We were evolved and we had jealous genes yet we were altruistic. I give you an evidence of animals, they still save one-another and somehow they kill each-other too. Do animals obey any dogmatic religion ? No. I bet you became a religious man after the terror and fear of your God. Fear of transgression, fear of calling racist, fear of calling kafir, fear of punishment, fear of death, fear of gays, fear of calling fool etc. Please visit a middle-eastern country, for your own sake. I hope you will change your assertions about how atheists are being treated there.
Thank god we live in christian countries where freedom is written in capital letters. But you are right, even many christians fear God. But that is just a result of not trusting Him. Of course God is just and against sin, because without justice there would not be mercy, only tolerance. And God is all merciful, for He loves us more than you could ever imagine. He will forgive you all the evil you do, and bring you back to Him if you just let Him. Therefore it is wrong to fear Him, for He only wants happiness and peace for you for all eternity. If you really trusted Him you would see, that He's ever so gentle, lovingly intervening, when you stray. The problem is just, that many people do not wake up, if they are not shocked. So sometimes He can put things rather strongly. But that too is just to bring people back to Him, who is only Love. So, do not fear God, only adore Him (the "fear of God" in the bible does not mean being scared, it means to know that God is Holy and to lower your head in front of Him, so He can lift you.)