An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs)

[Xandoré_BG]

@Codius Now you see the type of "christian" I was referencing in the original post, right? This poor excuse of a human being has been harassing, offending and Being a "holier than thou" type of prick for a couple of months now, spewing garbage from his fingertips in order to proove he is a true christian (more like a nazi IMO). SO I had to make this elaborate post about how these peoples are the worst type of humans beings alive simply because not only they make other peoples life miserable, But also Push people away from the word of Christ. This place is not majorly christian, at least I dont think so. He was given a bad example of what christians are, Since he goes around being the worst type of christian possible, the Cruzader Christian. SO.. yeah... hope that made it clear why I was super condescending and mean with my original post... I was trying to make him come out from the shadow of his hiding and show his true face.

[Rajeev2021]

@Thales_BG I am not a Christian,I am a Hindu.Though i am not religious but i still keep my faith in God and take part in religious ceremonies.According to your post in which you have said that you have left your religion by reading a few verses from the Bible which you don't find compatible with your way of thinking or maybe it's too violent.But i think that following a religion or atleast keeping faith in the Almighty is important as it strenghens our hope. I absolutely support your thoughts about these verses you have mentioned but still in Bible there are many good stuff which is useful to mankind(which also i really like).Actually all the major religions of the world were created by people in ancient times whose way of thinking differed from the people living in 21st century as they were very God fearing and superistisious. So i think every religion will be perfectly good if they are reformed somehow according to today's sceneario or environment as leaving aside the violent stuff every religion has some good stuff to offer to people to live their lives. Therefore according me it will be good if we just look into or follow the good side of every religion while rejecting the rotten stuff,instead of totally leaving our faith.

[Codius]

@Thales_BG Yes, I can understand the reaction but there's no need to drop yourself to his level.

[Xandoré_BG]

@Codius well... if by dropping to his level I managed to get him out of here, I'm fine with lowering my reputation around and being considered not as wise. I really dispise him so much I wouldn't mind losing some respect over it. He really made some good people around here miserable with his nonsense, and Banning him didn't work out, so I had to take things in my own hands.

[Xandoré_BG]

@Rajeev2021 I see your point Rajeev. I agree with it. although I am not religious or profess faith in any particular deity, I am not atheist. I have a personal understanding of spirituality and faith, and I really think it helps lots of people to get through life with hope. I am against fanatism and stupidity, and that's why I made this post.

[Silver Vulpina]

@Thales_BG thats... a lot of text for saying you are an old person with some weird fixation on being right... :grin::grin::grin:

[Silver Vulpina]

@Nibba_Nibby that was a good advice! too bad he didn't listen, huh? uwu :grin::grin::grin:

[A Former User]

@Silver-Vulpina yeh, he mentioned about bla bla then i said "you can be a global moderator then, to put your shoes on their UNPAID JOB @Global-Moderators rather than you have a bunch of complaints but no solutions" Then he hates me 😁🤣
Again @TalkWithStranger you may consider this one as a good option ever since this dude knows nothing but seems like knows everything about this place. Giving him such experience will make this dude shut the fucc up and find solution like the rest of my fellas in Moderator.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Silhouette said in An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs):

@Thales_BG I see, I see. You spoke your piece, you stood your ground. You mentioned me directly, as a real man should. Good, good.

Fine. You win. I concede a loss. I do not have enough backing to face you, for it seems like I am a minority on this site called TalkWithStranger.

Being Christian is not about having a backing. It is about standing your ground and staying faithful to the truth.

If we were on Voat or Gab, I would vaporize you. Penetrate your mind and make it weep.

Being Christian certainly is not about vaporizing others, quite the opposite. Love thy enemy. That is the central phrase. If you haven't caught up on this one... How can you declare anybody a fake christian?

But not here, not on this site. The mainstream of this site is quite clearly opposed to my presence here. No thinkers on this site, apparently. Only horny boys, third-world peasants, vapid sluts, fake Christian cucks like homosexuality-defending Peterparker and Marxist cucks like you. Tsk, pity pity, great pity.

You had a chance of really thinking. Really thinking requires you to engage with ideas you don't agree with. And it requires you to carefully read what others write. Every word/detail is important, especially with people who are actually rational thinkers.

And the nice thing about the catholic faith, to which you say you belong, and to which I certainly belong, is that we have everything properly formulated and codified. E.g. I can simply reference you to the official teaching of the catholic church, as I am doing right now https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm. Behind this link you will find the central part of the catholic church's teaching on human sexuality. I do agree with what is written there, and I am sure, that all I have written to you is in accordance with the church's teaching. So with this, you can either try and proove that what I said is not in accordance with the catholic faith (and try to change my mind), or you can begin to grow in this faith you apparently do know so little.

I was not deriving much enjoyment from reading through all the imbecilic posts that were on the main page anyway, so I shall depart at once. Enjoy your victory. You struck publicly, you gathered popular support and you made sure to read through my posting history. I despise you, but I will congratulate you. You earned this victory as a Man should, and I can respect that.

IMHO thales has not won, and neither has he done any good, by trying to make you feel defeated. But he has been honest and direct about it, so I will agree with your compliment on this part.

Farewell. I will not miss any of you, and I expect none of you cretins to miss me.

Christians love their enemies, or at least they try to. Catholics agree with the church's teachings or at least they try to :yum:. Examine yourself wether you are on God's ways or not.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Thales_BG said in An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs):

@Codius well... if by dropping to his level I managed to get him out of here, I'm fine with lowering my reputation around and being considered not as wise. I really dispise him so much I wouldn't mind losing some respect over it. He really made some good people around here miserable with his nonsense, and Banning him didn't work out, so I had to take things in my own hands.

It is not a good thing to get others out of here. Because this means they are out of the discussion. They will not learn. They will not change. People learn slowly. He might have learned a thing or two. He might not have been changed as a man, but he might have gotten a glimpse of some of his errors.

And I'm a bit confused now. On the one hand you know about russian bots driving people into the corners and creating a draft between them, keeping them from talking to each other. On the other hand you do the same thing, by getting rid of those on the other end of the thinking sphere. Free speech requires them to be in on it. For also they have things they are right about. If you isolate them, drive them out, what will come of it?

My guess is he has been caught in the same wave, the demonizing of the other side wave, the draft creating wave. And here it has swept him of the page. And you yourself have been swept away by the same kinda wave, just on the other side of things. You've both left the site, because you invested so much energy into defeating the other...

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r, you seem to be looking at this as some sort of big picture situation. I approached this as a way smaller picture. I will tell my line of thought here through an analogy. Maybe it will help in clearing out why a did what I did.

Imagine we are on a restaurant with a bunch of friends chatting and having a great time. The place is super busy and filled with all sort of different people. Then comes stomping in mister polish Nazi over there, and starts harassing everybody who is not a white christian in the joint. Then he comes to our table and start harassing our friends. Some call the staff of the place and hear things like "I am sorry but free speech and you could simply ignore him as well". Then they proceed to leave the place. We could spend the rest of the night debating him over why he is a fucking obnoxious moron, or a misguided young man. But that doesn't change the fact we are now alone, wasting our saliva on a guy that is clearly unwilling to talk. Then, we, tired from this whole pointlessly endeavors decide to leave the place as well. But then, something happens... Among the multitude of patrons of the restaurants, there were some that were also bothered by our mixed group of friends, but we're too insecure to say something... Now they start congratulating and talking to mister "Polish fascist" who got rid of the "scum" that were bothering them as well. When we all go back there, instead of one obnoxious scumbag, now we have three. We decide never to go there again. But then they start going on the same new place we choose to hang. We like diversity, so we choose a place filled with mixed people from different backgrounds, and that's the perfect recruiting ground for them, and they always end up recruiting one or two more sympathizer whenever we leave to avoid lowering to their level and keeping our moral high ground. Soon, they are outnumbering us and our mixed group of friends simply by the fact that most of our friends stopped going out for fear of running into them.

Now... If we, on the first time "Polish Himler" insulted our friends and the other patrons would have been decisive, firm, equally as harsh and aggressive as him, and gathered support from the other, non vocal patrons of the restaurant against him, and kicked him out of the place, we would still have a place to hang, friends to chat with on boring Wednesday's evening, and one less "radical" to deal with on our little favorite joint, as well as three or four "sympathizers of the polish extremist" rethinking if they are right simply by the fact that since they are too shy and insecure to expose their beliefs it means there is still room for a doubt, unlike our friend, mister "SS camp guard in the making" who were and probably will be for a very long time, completely possessed by his distorted world view.

I think, if you replace the group of friends with family members, the right choice becomes more easy to identify. Free speech is a two way street. Also, fire can burn both ways and he was a big proponent of "purifying" this place, so I am glad he was the one purged. And I didn't even said anything about he leaving this place prior to his pathetic attempt of leaving with the higher moral ground. I challenged him to a discussion, he left because he doesn't want to be opposed, he wants to be obeyed.

So, yeah, I am not a big proponent of pacifism to be honest, as I think the world would be a better place if instead of being patient and indirectly compliant to most of what we all can agree are bad individuals, we would simply give them a taste of their own medicine, or go even further a little bit and show him that difference between being good and being just.

PS: His last message showed clearly, at least to me, that he has some unresolved trauma regarding being cucked by a immigrant from a third world country because I think he is projecting so much it is undeniable he should seek some therapy. Shadow possession is not a funny business and has been shown to be one of the most dangerous psychological process ever, resulting in things like, you name it, Hitler, Stalin and Mao. So... If you are reading this mister "polish cuckhold", not every woman is like your last one, and not every third world country peasant will steal you girlfriend. This fetish can be cured by therapy, so does your complex. Seek help and live a better life, instead of being the first to die holding a fascist banner in the coming war.

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r, I would also like to share my thoughts regarding fighting violence with violence

I think this image is pretty unpleasant. But I rather watch this happens 1000 times over a mob linching of minorities. Or a tiki torch rally resulting in people getting ran over by one of those fellas. I rather see news of a shooting than news of another avoidable genocide.... For me it is all about net result. If violence can prevent senseless, unthinkable and maniacal violence from happening... Well... I guess the choice is pretty clear. In a ideal world, people would be reasonable and listen, but it is clear to me we are not living in a ideal world. Sadly. I rather have a conversation than an heated argument always. I would rather try to convince a extremist of his mistakes in logic than resorting to violence. But we all know how it is... Love is a precious resource and I choose to save mine for those that I find worthy.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Thales_BG said in An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs):

@pe7erpark3r, you seem to be looking at this as some sort of big picture situation. I approached this as a way smaller picture. I will tell my line of thought here through an analogy. Maybe it will help in clearing out why a did what I did.

Imagine we are on a restaurant with a bunch of friends chatting and having a great time. The place is super busy and filled with all sort of different people. Then comes stomping in mister polish Nazi over there, and starts harassing everybody who is not a white christian in the joint. Then he comes to our table and start harassing our friends. Some call the staff of the place and hear things like "I am sorry but free speech and you could simply ignore him as well". Then they proceed to leave the place. We could spend the rest of the night debating him over why he is a fucking obnoxious moron, or a misguided young man. But that doesn't change the fact we are now alone, wasting our saliva on a guy that is clearly unwilling to talk. Then, we, tired from this whole pointlessly endeavors decide to leave the place as well. But then, something happens... Among the multitude of patrons of the restaurants, there were some that were also bothered by our mixed group of friends, but we're too insecure to say something... Now they start congratulating and talking to mister "Polish fascist" who got rid of the "scum" that were bothering them as well. When we all go back there, instead of one obnoxious scumbag, now we have three. We decide never to go there again. But then they start going on the same new place we choose to hang. We like diversity, so we choose a place filled with mixed people from different backgrounds, and that's the perfect recruiting ground for them, and they always end up recruiting one or two more sympathizer whenever we leave to avoid lowering to their level and keeping our moral high ground. Soon, they are outnumbering us and our mixed group of friends simply by the fact that most of our friends stopped going out for fear of running into them.

Now... If we, on the first time "Polish Himler" insulted our friends and the other patrons would have been decisive, firm, equally as harsh and aggressive as him, and gathered support from the other, non vocal patrons of the restaurant against him, and kicked him out of the place, we would still have a place to hang, friends to chat with on boring Wednesday's evening, and one less "radical" to deal with on our little favorite joint, as well as three or four "sympathizers of the polish extremist" rethinking if they are right simply by the fact that since they are too shy and insecure to expose their beliefs it means there is still room for a doubt, unlike our friend, mister "SS camp guard in the making" who were and probably will be for a very long time, completely possessed by his distorted world view.

I think, if you replace the group of friends with family members, the right choice becomes more easy to identify. Free speech is a two way street. Also, fire can burn both ways and he was a big proponent of "purifying" this place, so I am glad he was the one purged. And I didn't even said anything about he leaving this place prior to his pathetic attempt of leaving with the higher moral ground. I challenged him to a discussion, he left because he doesn't want to be opposed, he wants to be obeyed.

So, yeah, I am not a big proponent of pacifism to be honest, as I think the world would be a better place if instead of being patient and indirectly compliant to most of what we all can agree are bad individuals, we would simply give them a taste of their own medicine, or go even further a little bit and show him that difference between being good and being just.

Now I'm beginning to actually worry for you. You sound just as hateful and vengeful as you make him out to be. But he wasn't even that aggressive... Basically I have the feeling you managed to bring out the worst in him. And yet what you write sounds worse yet. He was never talking about actual violence. He wasn't even actually pronouncing Nazi ideas. You compare him to hitler... And yet he even said things like this:

Now, let me be clear: entering a foreign country as a temporary migrant is perfectly fine. Cultural exchanges are always very illuminating for everyone involved. Of course, one cannot also refuse offering asylum to women and children escaping from warfare.

The worst thing he said really is that homosexuality is bad. He didn't say that homosexuals should be killed, or beaten physically. I honestly don't think he's much of a Nazi. Are you sure its not just your emotions getting the best of you?

Free speech is not a two way street in the sense you make it out to be. Free speech does not give the unreasonable a platform. Quite in contrast it favors the reasonble, for only if you are reasonable yourself will you even be able to participate in the discussion. In a free discussion people will only listen to those who actually make sense.

Who do you think beat up the Nazi in the pic you posted? 99% chance it was an antifa member, e.g. the guys that want to bring about the same kinda hell on the left side. Stop falling for their tricks. This is evil. Evil breeds evil. Always.

And if there is no discussion, there will only be violence. And no matter the winner, the result will be hell, wether they are on the right side or the left. The only people who ever brought freedom and prosperity were the ones in the center, the advocates of free speech.

PS: His last message showed clearly, at least to me, that he has some unresolved trauma regarding being cucked by a immigrant from a third world country because I think he is projecting so much it is undeniable he should seek some therapy. Shadow possession is not a funny business and has been shown to be one of the most dangerous psychological process ever, resulting in things like, you name it, Hitler, Stalin and Mao. So... If you are reading this mister "polish cuckhold", not every woman is like your last one, and not every third world country peasant will steal you girlfriend. This fetish can be cured by therapy, so does your complex. Seek help and live a better life, instead of being the first to die holding a fascist banner in the coming war.

Stop speculating. I hate speculation. He was hurt in his pride, felt abandoned, especially by me I suppose. Which is his own fault for not reading my words carefully enough...

And last but not least, to take up your example: What do you think will happen to the people you drove out of that nice joint? They will meet in another place. They will connect themselves. And they will feel excluded, silenced. They will want to fight back, instead of being in the discussion, and making a new experience.

You know... evil needs to be fought. Early. And yet you simply force your opponent underground. You do not challenge evil, you make it regroup somewhere else. You do not talk to the guy, you do not show him that his ideas are evil. You do not pull those guys who were undecided on your side, which you would do, if you had actual arguments, and used your own free speech. Because a strong character is admired. Even by evil people.

I know it can be frustrating, and it can be hard. But if you don't fight it, if you don't actually challenge it, it will win. It will win in the form of left or right, whoever is stronger at this point. But it will win. Winning is losing, for the result will be hell.

What you want is to grow, you want to become somebody able of bringing people away from evil, of convincing them. You want to become somebody who is admired by people, somebody they will listen to.

I mean if you take the psychological example to its end, simply for yourself, this is who you want to be... you know it! You want to be a good person. You want to constantly fight the evil inside you and you want to win. And you should.

Mother Therese once answered to the question what she would change to make the world a better place... She said, "I would change you and me". People like that make the world a better place. We need this kind of people. And anybody can become like that, really anybody.

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r Fucking amazing dude. Legit, I am speechless. You certainly are an extremely reasonable guy. you actually made me despise that whole "shenenigan" I pulled of there. Let's just say I have some uncontrolled demons yet to come to ligth and that whole thing was written while I was going through one of those... "exorcisms"... as jokingly yet weirdly accuratly tend to call those events. You were right to worry about me. I wasnt really ok. As I am sure you are aware, I have been extremely on edge around this parts, lots of stupid dramas affecting in a way I didnt think would still be possible after all these years of "interneting". I need to take a break. From the internet (as I am sure you would imagine this isn't really the only place I hang around while surfing them webs). I am mentally spent from this sort of fear and hate-mongering enviroment.

You can clearly see I was being just as redical as Sillhoute, and yes, good on you for calling my BS about his "complexes and Projections". I was doing that myself through him. I projected everything I hate about myself in him. and that's no Speculation btw. I know and I admit I can be just as prejudicious and Aggresive as him (even tho I am slightly more educated on his demeanor on private sectors of this site, where he thought no one would see his discourse, still no reason for me to reciprocate ten-fold like I just did here)

As I said before, I have a shady, unlikable past, and I aint no saint. I am working on it though.
Glad you called me out. Thanks.

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r BUT, one last thing before my break. Yes, My emotions where getting the best of me for sure, but one thing I think he made quite clear throughout most of his discourse around here, which is... in a way, some sort of reason for my association of him with Nazism. He is a White supremacist. He makes sure to make that one pretty clear. He does believe black and brown people are inferior (especially if they are female). You can clearly see that in some instances where he interacted with these people, thus leading me to believe he is indeed that, a white supremacist. Not sure how he thinks it would be the appropriated way to deal with inferior people, but I cant really picture him, at this moment, giving them a fair chance.

Free speech is not a two way street in the sense you make it out to be. Free speech does not give the unreasonable a platform. Quite in contrast it favors the reasonble, for only if you are reasonable yourself will you even be able to participate in the discussion. In a free discussion people will only listen to those who actually make sense.

This tho, I cant really say I agree 100%. once again, in an Ideal world where reason was a Common thing, that would be true. This world isnt really filled with people like you. Dude, I am not even half as reasonable as you and I still sound pretty reasonable most of the time compared with most people. It is most about the crowd then it is about the Preacher. Look around, and tell me if it doesnt look like there is a clear divide? Like, of course Reasonable people can spot and refute most of the Unreasonable people's speech, but does it seems like people are listening to reason? I really think we have opposing view on that simply by the fact of our different background. I will not speculate about yours (I dont like speculation either but I am prone to doing it because I am a work in progress towards being truly reasonable), But i will tell you about mine. Being a Brazilian and being around people from very different walks of life in a fairly mixed community, I can tell you one thing for sure: no matter who we are talking about, chances are they are looking the other way or simply too guillible to discern flaws in the logic of whoever they agree with. We are a brown country with a tradition of miscegenation, still we managed to elect a president with very worrying ties and discourses. I will provide a link with the most recent debacle and a good glimpse on the state my country is in Right now, so you understand why I said what I said about free-speech (which is not a real thing in here BTW)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-51149224

[pe7erpark3r]

@Thales_BG said in An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs):

@pe7erpark3r BUT, one last thing before my break. Yes, My emotions where getting the best of me for sure, but one thing I think he made quite clear throughout most of his discourse around here, which is... in a way, some sort of reason for my association of him with Nazism. He is a White supremacist. He makes sure to make that one pretty clear. He does believe black and brown people are inferior (especially if they are female). You can clearly see that in some instances where he interacted with these people, thus leading me to believe he is indeed that, a white supremacist.

I cannot judge that, so I will not.

Not sure how he thinks it would be the appropriated way to deal with inferior people, but I cant really picture him, at this moment, giving them a fair chance.

Well let's not assume things. And certainly not judge before the crime. There is no objectivity to these things... We are all on the way, him of course too. If he wants to see himself as somebody who's illuminated by cultural exchanges, then one could show inconsistent actions of his. As long as he wants to be good there is hope you know? And as long as he doesn't propagate violence we should not assume that that is what he would want even for those he looks down on... And if he isn't even aware that he's looking down on them, then I think the right action is not to judge him, but to help him see the world from another one's point of view. And tws actually is a good place to do just that.

Free speech is not a two way street in the sense you make it out to be. Free speech does not give the unreasonable a platform. Quite in contrast it favors the reasonble, for only if you are reasonable yourself will you even be able to participate in the discussion. In a free discussion people will only listen to those who actually make sense.

This tho, I cant really say I agree 100%. once again, in an Ideal world where reason was a Common thing, that would be true. This world isnt really filled with people like you. Dude, I am not even half as reasonable as you and I still sound pretty reasonable most of the time compared with most people. It is most about the crowd then it is about the Preacher. Look around, and tell me if it doesnt look like there is a clear divide? Like, of course Reasonable people can spot and refute most of the Unreasonable people's speech, but does it seems like people are listening to reason?

You are right. There is a clear divide. It is growing. This is bad, really bad. It'll destroy us.

The question is why the divide is growing. You are right about some of the reasons of course too, which include russian bots too. I also like to point out, that google, facebook & Co. are a lot more powerful at manipulating their content, than any group of state funded russian hackers could ever be, simply because they have full control over the algorithms and they are proprietary, and highly classified too. Silicon Valley can do things the russians can never dream of, and without anybody ever noticing, for that's how IT works. You basically only need one genius to make those algorithms and to keep them working and tune them into whichever direction you like.... But alas, I'm lamenting :joy:

The divide is growing. And reasonable people are being silenced by unreasonable people. The more corrupt a system is, the easier this happens. Brazil sounds quite corrupt judging from your words. And in the US and europe the fourth pillar of democracy has also been eroded highly by corruption: the media. Since they have realized in the 80s that you can make money with news, it has been going downhill. Nowadays people are paid to lie... This is horrible, it really is. And they lie on both sides of course, and being in their own bubble through social media or the specific TV channel of choice, people are being drawn away from the reasonable people who are always in the center and always disagree with being part of just one bubble completely and reject the other. Well. We do need solutions. I wish I had some.

I just know that freedom of speech is being eroded in this way. So yes, you are right. It's not that people will listen to reason automatically. Certainly not if they are entrapped by ideologues. But how do you fight ideologues? Through challenging them, showing the problems with their ideas, through using free speech. That's why Peterson has become such a phenomenon. He speaks reasonable and he challenges the mainstream. Well, I just hope we'll get through this. I hope the reasonable will gain more and more traction, and that the bubbles eventually pop.

I really think we have opposing view on that simply by the fact of our different background. I will not speculate about yours (I dont like speculation either but I am prone to doing it because I am a work in progress towards being truly reasonable), But i will tell you about mine. Being a Brazilian and being around people from very different walks of life in a fairly mixed community, I can tell you one thing for sure: no matter who we are talking about, chances are they are looking the other way or simply too guillible to discern flaws in the logic of whoever they agree with. We are a brown country with a tradition of miscegenation, still we managed to elect a president with very worrying ties and discourses. I will provide a link with the most recent debacle and a good glimpse on the state my country is in Right now, so you understand why I said what I said about free-speech (which is not a real thing in here BTW)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-51149224

:joy: apparently you didn't have the smartest minister of culture. I wonder if those advisers got him sacked on purpose?

Well nationalist ideas are gaining power in many places of the world. And quite honestly I don't think there is much wrong with putting your own nation first in an economical and a cultural way. Without of course thinking that other's are inferior.

Think about it. A non corrupt nation will create wealth. Non-corruption means order. This is the currency of the west really: trust. You can trust, that the other party will hold up their side of the deal. Or the system will put consequences on them. And then, this wealth gets distributed. In the sense of ideas and in the sense of money too. Take the human rights / human dignity for example. They are derived from the idea that humans are created in the image of God, thus every human has the same dignity as every other. This idea has spread around the world, many have adapted it. And progress of science in the west has almost eradicated child hunger in india for example. Progress is happening...

But yeah. Corruption takes hold, more and more. Free speech is being fought. And yet, I think it is the only solution to the problem. The people who are too gullible to recognize the faults of those they are following need to hear the reasonable more. Since they cannot differentiate they need others who do. We need speakers, preachers, who use their minds, who think themselves, and are courageous enough to stand up. I don't know how it is in brazil, but in germany the reasons to be killed are yet miniscule. We should stand up now, while this is still the case. Now reason still has a chance to win.

I mean people are fed up with political correctness. They want to see and hear politicians agains that have edges and mistakes, but are actually willing to think for themselves and move something. Let's just hope and do our best so that the right people win.

Because in the end, I still think above all stands morality. If people choose to be bought, if they choose evil, there will also be an evil leader. If they choose good – and they need prophets and reasonable thinkers to be beacons of light to orient themselves toward them – then and only then will the results also be good. And... it doesn't matter wether you are smart or not: if you are smarter you are just capable of more sophisticated evil and more sophisticated good. The results will be the same: evil breeds evil, good breeds good. We need to do good, we need to bring reason, we need to bring true free speech back to the place at the top, where it never was ;-P

[pe7erpark3r]

dang I write too much :joy:

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r

I cannot judge that, so I will not.
but to help him see the world from another one's point of view. And tws actually is a good place to do just that.

you dont need to judge, I just ask you to consider that if something walks like a duck, behaves like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, The most logical and pragmatic line of thought is to first consider it a duck, then later, giving time and a deeper analysis, determine if it is or not, but for all practical reason, it's a duck. But I will stop talking about our polish, gone acquaintance. Judging implies conviction. I was pointing out the reason why I consider him an white supremacist. highly personal view, but one that is not without its merits.

It is hard to get another point of view when you dont want to. possible, but hard, and his actions here werent one of open mindness and receptiveness to different opinions, another thing that makes that shift in view strenuosly difficult.

Because in the end, I still think above all stands morality. If people choose to be bought, if they choose evil, there will also be an evil leader. If they choose good – and they need prophets and reasonable thinkers to be beacons of light to orient themselves toward them – then and only then will the results also be good. And... it doesn't matter wether you are smart or not: if you are smarter you are just capable of more sophisticated evil and more sophisticated good. The results will be the same: evil breeds evil, good breeds good. We need to do good, we need to bring reason, we need to bring true free speech back to the place at the top, where it never was

Smartness unlock the most powerfull trick any men can have. Deceitfullness. A skilled person in the art of deceit can easily make people see Right as Wrong and vice-versa. the world and all it's social, philosofical, moral, religious, traditional, political and Ideological structures are in the hands of Smart individuals. Who is to say they arent being deceitfull? a group of smart people that also could very well be just as deceitfull as the their conterparts? Truth is never easy to achieve, simply because it is buried so deep into the lies that we might never really know. We can Have faith we found truth, but... how would we know? Universal truths doesnt need studies. They simply are undeniable. we might not understand them, we might not like them, we might not agree with them, but regardless of all that, they simply are. Men has been trying to create truth since we first we learned how to be creative. the Smartest people creates the most simple truths, but men can't create truths. They simply are. Morality is a Men-made truth simply by the fact that there are and always have been many iterations of "moralities" often times opposed to each other. Who is capable of decerning the universal one, The undeniable one without being trapped in a nightmarish web of deceit and personal faith? And what give us the right to impose that personal faith onto others? That's what keeps me locked in a state of utter hopelessness toward the future. We are either being herded around by a very smart group of people imposing their own view on us, or in utter blindness. not in between.

[Xandoré_BG]

@pe7erpark3r

I just ask you to consider that if something walks like a duck, behaves like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, The most logical and pragmatic line of thought is to first consider it a duck, then later, giving time and a deeper analysis, determine if it is or not, but for all practical reason, it's a duck.

I know this is logical falacy 101, but let's say that if something's goes through the effort or does naturally to look like a duck, you wouldn't be blamed to consider it one. And the chances of it actually being a duck is far greater then anything else. That's what I tried to say with this "falacious" analogy

[pe7erpark3r]

@Thales_BG said in An Open letter to TWS Religious Zealots (especially those who are more "active" around here and are extremely vocal about their beliefs):

@pe7erpark3r

I just ask you to consider that if something walks like a duck, behaves like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, The most logical and pragmatic line of thought is to first consider it a duck, then later, giving time and a deeper analysis, determine if it is or not, but for all practical reason, it's a duck.

test

I know this is logical falacy 101, but let's say that if something's goes through the effort or does naturally to look like a duck, you wouldn't be blamed to consider it one. And the chances of it actually being a duck is far greater then anything else. That's what I tried to say with this "falacious" analogy

Quite honestly I think we are dragging this out too long :joy:… I should have just simply said thank you for the compliment of calling me reasonable. And you too are quite aware what reasonable can be. So apart from, "don't beat the duck, listen to it, it's a person" there is not much that needs adding to it. The thought is reasonable (e.g. it prolly is a duck), the reaction is what we disagreed on for good reason, and we've each said what was to be said.

Yes I should have simply appreciated your viewpoint, period.

Smartness unlock the most powerfull trick any men can have. Deceitfullness. A skilled person in the art of deceit can easily make people see Right as Wrong and vice-versa. the world and all it's social, philosofical, moral, religious, traditional, political and Ideological structures are in the hands of Smart individuals. Who is to say they arent being deceitfull? a group of smart people that also could very well be just as deceitfull as the their conterparts? Truth is never easy to achieve, simply because it is buried so deep into the lies that we might never really know. We can Have faith we found truth, but... how would we know? Universal truths doesnt need studies. They simply are undeniable. we might not understand them, we might not like them, we might not agree with them, but regardless of all that, they simply are. Men has been trying to create truth since we first we learned how to be creative. the Smartest people creates the most simple truths, but men can't create truths. They simply are. Morality is a Men-made truth simply by the fact that there are and always have been many iterations of "moralities" often times opposed to each other. Who is capable of decerning the universal one, The undeniable one without being trapped in a nightmarish web of deceit and personal faith? And what give us the right to impose that personal faith onto others? That's what keeps me locked in a state of utter hopelessness toward the future. We are either being herded around by a very smart group of people imposing their own view on us, or in utter blindness. not in between.

Deceit, indeed… There certainly is that very smart group. Hehe. However there are lots of very smart groups imposing their views on us. Contradicting views. The christian one being only one of them.

But since it is always good to understand other viewpoints, I'll explain to you where I'm coming from in my thinking.

I believe in the divine, in God. The God I believe in cares. He really cares. So he keeps whispering His will into your heart… People always want to emancipate themselves from God. But this only seems to make sense because they see Him like a human being, like a parent. But God is not human at all. He literally is Love! Which means that when you emancipate yourself from Him, you emancipate yourself from Love. Ergo you no longer do Love's will. You no longer love. Simple right?

And this whispering is what makes any moral choice possible in the first place. Any moral choice is thus listening to this Voice, or not listening. Any moral choice is between loving and not loving. Hence the definition of sin really is nothing other than lack of love.

This Voice, that the Holy Spirit is, speaks to each and every one of us, in every moment where we decide. This means, that with every moral choice you either do good, or evil. And if you do good, that draws down good on everyone. And if you do evil, that draws evil down on everyone. And since you will act as long as you are alive you will do either one or the other.

Now you might say, that this worldview simply shifts the problem you mentioned, and that it still persits. One thing has already changed though: now the universal truth is tangible by everyone. Still you are right, the second question remains… You and me, we want to get to the universal truth, we want to do good, don't we? Since God's Voice obviously isn't the only voice speaking to us, we now have the difficulty of discerning the truth from the lies. But still, don't forget, you will be making moral choices all the time. The key here is to understand that I believe in a moral reality that is higher than human reason, e.g. that you will do good or bad without knowing in a cognitive sense that you are doing good or bad. Maybe your heart knows... something in you knows – in a way – that an action is good or that it is bad. You must have experienced this also consciously at some point in your life – when you feel that something you're going to do is not good, even though you can't say why...

But at many points we just don't know what's right or wrong... And it would be good to know, to understand, to do good, would it not? So how can we do this?

This one is hard to accept… and can only be experienced, and only in one way. By doing it. Trust in God to guide you. Trust is the key. For He will guide you, if you trust Him to do so. You personally. I know, for I have experienced just that. Maybe directly, maybe through others, maybe through events. But He will guide you, and if you trust Him, you will begin to recognize His Voice better and better. This is how He acts. He liberates you from evil step by step by step by tiny step. Always guiding you deeper into trust.

You might say: Doesn't trust make you naive, make you easily fall for lies? Yes, it does. However I'm not asking you to just trust anybody. I'm asking you to trust God. But yes, still you are right, you don't know Him yet, so you He might not be as trustworthy as I make Him out to be.

True, true, this too. You should never believe or trust without reason. Don't listen to people who ask you to trust without reason. In life, you often have to give people, just people, a bit of a trust advance. I mean you cannot ask anybody on the street for directions if you did not give them at least as much trust as to assume they might know.

(Funny side note: in india you should not do this. In their culture they loose face if they can't tell you the directions, so they will tell you something even if they have no clue :joy:. Here you see another one of the reasons why the west is so strong: because you can trust in a deal and in most of societies members to a certain degree. In all non-christian countries this is not a given...)

So… you do have to give God a bit of an advance in trust, but when you have done so, you will very soon have a proper reason to trust, since – let me tell you – He is trustworthy.

Why though am I so convinced of this? It is because of a core experience of mine. 10 years ago I read 10% of TLIG and I recognized His Voice. It's a really strange experience because to this day I cannot deny that this is indeed His Voice.

So… despite all the lies floating around, especially in christian churches and also in the catholic church sadly, I know that God guides us. At least those who listen, who want to listen to His Voice, who want to give Him a chance. And He would guide anybody else too, if they just tried trusting Him, just looked for Him, just looked for a reason to trust Him. Because He does love us to folly. That's right. He died on the cross for us. If that's not love to folly than I don't know… He will guide us to Himself, if we only give Him the chance.

So yeah… if you have any questions or I haven't said something clearly enough, please feel free to ask…