Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?



  • @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    No need to disprove it. The one who is affirmative claiming, ‘the burden of proof’ implies on him. In this case, you are affirmatively claiming, therefore it implies on you.

    Lets start like this: you can apply this burdon of proof to history in the same way you could with physical things. I mean yeah, of course we should do our best to check all the references and weigh up carefully the propabilities of things. And I will do so.

    But really I think it is insane (edit: I apologize for the insulting choice of word) to say people who cannot be proven to have existed with absolute certainty did not exist. That would mean that 95% of humanity in the past did not exist, and that I have to prove they did before you accept that they do.

    So I'll say again what I said before: you cannot expect to find a lot of documents on Jesus, because he was not at all a big political figure. And the documents that existed are lost in 2000 years of history. You simply cannot expect to find much other than religious texts. This is history. History is not science. Sadly 😂

    So consequently, even if you were right, that Jesus was added to Josephus Flavius writings and Tacitus writings, your claim that He did not exist is at best circumstancial.

    I would even say that the history that follows after Jesus death allows me to say, you bear the burdon of proof. There is so much literature on him, so many people who follow his teachings, not only in the roman empire, but also in the holy land, which is basically christian after the Jews are driven out by the romans in 70 AD. There is so much reason to assume that Jesus was indeed historical, simply by the impact he had in isreal alone, that you need to find more than just the lack of mentioning him in official roman writers, to say he did not exist.


  • Soul Searchers

    @AllAboutGay said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @pe7erpark3r If you try to prove Jesus you should at least try to prove gays as well, since gays are by far the most persecuted,disbelieved (and invalidated!) group in the world.

    @AllAboutGay is of the opinion, that gays were historical persons.

    I hold the position, that gays were indeed historical figures.

    So how could one prove or disprove that gays did exist?

    The first problem of course is that all that which we are talking about happened 6900 years ago. We have a lot of LGBT texts, in the book of homosexuality and also apocryphical ones that talk about gays' deeds. Is an LGBT text enough to prove a gay's existence?

    The question is, what should we expect to find other than LGBT texts? Should gays not be in some register?

    I'll let straight people, or anybody who wants to join in, open the debate ❤

    Please note I'm a gay man, so the debate will be gay like any other 😋

    😂😂😂😂😂😂y tho? Why you have to do the bro like this 😂😂?



  • @AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    You do not believe in batman to be real. You did not find batman in your heart the same way we did find Christ...

    I used to believe anime characters were real and I used to fight with my friends because they found other anime characters real.
    I mean I understand your point man. Some of this anime characters have helped me in my hard times too. Of course then I grew up and lost my ability to believe 100% in imaginary characters. I'm not joking. We all need an imaginary friend. 😄

    The nature of the things we are talking about is very special. You should really check out TLIG and read (quite) a bit. If you open your heart, you might understand what we are talking about, and why it is different from believing that comic characters are real. I mean you can never understand an experience really until you make it. Same for me, I cannot possibly imagine what it feels like to believe that anime characters are real.


  • Movie Buff

    @pe7erpark3r I will tell you what it's like to believe anime characters are real, Childish. 😄


  • Movie Buff

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    You should really check out TLIG and read (quite) a bit. If you open your heart, you might understand what we are talking about, and why it is different from believing that comic characters are real.

    The fact that you need some kind of God in your life after learning science is what I don't understand. As for missionaries like TLIG , they are just using people's suffering to gain more popularity. Nobody truly needs it but nobody knows that either.


  • Movie Buff

    @pe7erpark3r Dude my point is we can all experience what we want. You want some reality where we are all creations ? Yeah you can have that if you believe it that deep. Why do you think the Bible asks you to believe in the first place.


  • Movie Buff

    @Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    You say I'm idiotic? Oh well let me be idiotic in Christ, it's far better than to be intelligent in the world.

    I truly wish you all the best in your adventures with him.


  • Soul Searchers

    @Vex-Man I said search your heart not follow your heart. And Christians ( born again people in Christ) and the rest of the world truly don't know how to pray, but it doesn't mean they don't know who to say a prayer.

    (What is prayer? Prayer normally is a communication between man and God. But the people doesn't even know that. They think prayer is making noise and jumping around in the name of God and prayer. God is in constant listening mode on every heart, as a matter of fact the bible says "our souls (thus our hearts) are the very heart beats of God. So If you just humble yourself and seek God with the heart and mind of a baby you will definitely see His presence in your life)

    Now what that scripture means in saying Christians don't know how to pray is I) they don't know what to pray for and ii) don't have the words to please God with their prayers unless led by the Spirit of God.
    That's why He (The Holy Spirit) intercedes for us before God. In other words, He shapes our (Christians, born again people in Christ) prayers to the form and format that is pleasing to God.

    And I can testify to that, when I became a born again Christian I knew shit about prayer, I didn't even feel like saying a prayer. When everyone else was praying my eyes were just closed and I'd be like an illiterate, just listening to others praying or I'd say a little prayer and that's it.
    But then as I grew in Christianity (living like Christ) through the Spirit of God and His teachings I began to know how to pray. And when the need to pray comes He tells me exactly what to pray for, He gives me the words.

    PERSONALY I don't need anyone on here to believe or even listen to what I'm saying. But this is my experience, this is my experiment, I tested the waters and The Truth revealed itself to me. I don't even come from a Christian family first of all but this is my testimony. Whoever wishes to say is bs can say #freedomofspeech..

    but know y'all should know this *1 John 4:2-3 Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. Let he who has an ear hears wisdom and seize from foolishness.


  • Soul Searchers

    @pe7erpark3r God isn't even the God of religion it's just society that labeled Him like that. But yeah I understand for the sake of this discussion you have to put it like that.

    The thing is many people don't even know what's God's name (and even Christians and many religious leaders) so they confuse Him with so many stuffs and rubbish.

    Following the teachings of the Holy Spirit, God (I Am is His name) never brought any religion, from the Old to New Testament there nowhere stating that and if there is show me.
    It was people, as you can read through out the Old Testament "The people of God" and at that time everything was by the law, and there was nothing like grace as we see today, so just anybody couldnt come and claim he's a "pupil of God" and it had to be like that.

    Then Jesus Christ came with Grace and it cancelled condemnation by the law. So from there we started hearing about Christians and Christianity which first was a mockery and insult labelling followers of the teachings of Jesus. Then as time went on it became known by all and became a religion, a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion. And our times came where religion became the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power and a particular system of faith and worship. And people thirsty for power took advantage of it to control, rule and cause harm to society with the help of the devil, the pupil's ignorance and laziness.


  • Soul Searchers

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @pe7erpark3r

    I said kjv cuz compared to niv, nlt, and some translations there's no omission of verses. But yeah, when you experience Jesus and the Spirit of God personally into your life you don't need any philosopher, google, pastor or whatever to give you proves.

    Yes, you should always get a translation that is close to the original! And if you want to compare biblehub.com's interlinear translation is a good place to get a feeling of what's really written in the original greek or hebrew text.

    And just a note for @Vex-Man who always claims that we have no orginal of the bible: We have texts (in and out of the bible) that are 3000 years old and have been copied over the centuries. And the mistakes that are introduced over so many years are miniscule. So we can rely around 99.9% on the greek texts we have of the bible.

    Bible says You need to believe to be able to see. Many of the world will know the Bible as much as Lucifer does and they'll derive philosophies from it whiles being led by false spirits. It's sad but it's OK, because unless you experience darkness you'll never acknowledged light. Because light IS and doesn't exist. People who live in clouds of darkness, conditioning and confusion if you tell them about The Light of the World they'll always tell you there's nothing like light because they don't know and don't even want to believe just a little bit something called 'Light' is ( "exist" in their terminology)

    I wouldn't judge them so harshly. For believing is not the same as thinking. Believing is trust, and you need to learn trust, by trusting, by making experiences. If we could prove that God exists, they would not have won anything, but that now they think that God exists. But still they would not believe. And faith is what they really need.

    Oh no I'm not judging them fam, I'm just saying the truth. I mean I don't think there's anything condemning in what I said



  • @Sij 100% agree with you.



  • @Indrid-Cold said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    I skimmed these pages and @spaceboy should probably get most kudos just for staying on-topic. But I'm not criticizing. As a veteran of debates like these, I can confirm that everyone has their own hobby-horse to shoe-horn into the debate. Would we really have it any other way?

    Who would not 😂

    Me, I long ago had my head turned by the books of Barbara Thiering, whose forensic, ultra-scholarly writing took in both the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi and contemporary apocrypha, to suggest the J-Man was 'just' part of some Jewish-cult-to-end-all-Jewish-cults. The research not only seems detailed enough, but it also fits my personal level of pessimism about a tangible, interventionist God.

    But you have read up on her critics in the meantime, like a good boi(ntellectual) I suppose 😋

    But if there's one thing I hate in religious debates (and sorry to the above users who've done it), it's when people draw a parallel between fictional characters like Batman, Spider-Man, etc, and Jesus / God. God, if He / It exists will necessarily transcend context. So if there's a story where Batman breaks down the fourth wall and boldy presumes to give the reader religious instructions (and even with the freak-out stories of Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman, I don't think there has been), you can legitimately compare him to Jesus. But not until then.

    Good point yeah. Why do you always come up with points I'd never ever think of?

    Also, I stand with @AllAboutGay on the existence of The Gays in ancient antiquity. This prehistoric skelington has the same distinctive gap in his teeth as John Inman:

    gay skeleton.jpg

    I love your humor! And yeah, totally. Maybe we all descend from a gay couple after all...



  • @spaceboy said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    I mean @pe7erpark3r here and not an apostle. And my thoughts were relates about Jesus mentioning in early Christian's apocrypha. And the ideas of these texts are far different from the official version. Fog cannot appear without a fire. That make me think, that someone existed. Yeshua or maybe he had another name. Someone was crucified. It was very popular type of execution in Rome of those time. And the execution of these man, became a start point of Christianity religion. That what I mean under words 'Historical Jesus'.

    A very good point, and I like the analogy (fog + fire).

    P. S.: Unfortunately we won't know the truth about those events. I mean the real story-line, the real chain of events.. Maybe Zarathustra will know, or Abdul Alhazred.. But not we..

    You will see, that there is quite a bit of evidence, that the ghospel's accounts (in large parts) are in fact historical, when the debate procedes. I hope @Vex-Man returns 😅


  • Movie Buff

    @Majestic-Catfish said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    I also hope you will behave in a new debate. Whenever you run out of rational arguments, you clutch personal offenses.
    @AbhiKerala, @Indrid-Cold, @spaceboy, @Kaneki-kun, @Sij All 5 users behave with enough respect and manners.

    I'm sorry If I have acted without respect. Good luck to everyone.


  • Banned

    @Kaneki-kun @Kaneki-kun
    Every religion perform miracles too
    Why should anyone believe Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Saviour?
    People can't just believe Jesus just like that the same way you can't just believe Islam is the only true religion and whoever disbelieves Islam , will definitelt go to hell .
    Question is how in the hell can you find the ultimate truth of the Afterlife in this finite moment of life? Would you believe that Islam is only true and Christians are false?
    What if Christianity was wrong? What if Islam was wrong? What if you're all wrong? Cause there are many other religions out there telling the same thing.. Rewards and Punishment.
    If God gave us freewill? And Hell really exist? Why prison exists in this so much called intelligent well designed world?



  • umm there are also historical texts aside from the Bible that supports the existence of Jesus. Some of these authors are non-Christians like the Roman Senator Tacitus. He recorded the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate.



  • @Original-Satan said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    So to say it clearly again: If you want to debate with me, we can do it slowly, argument by argument, after agreeing on a set of rules.

    If you just want to spam a huge load of information as to why you are right... well have fun alone 😋



  • Ofcourse I sent you wrong article. Sorry. As he says he thinks it is a positive claim. I had another article which I wanted to send you. There was a missing copy-paste of weblinks. Below one was actual weblink-
    https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

    I don't think you have a proof of his existence. Therefore, there is no reason to debate on this topic anymore.

    You seem to believe everything as long as you find an article that fullfills your criteria for reliable. However that article is simply wrong. Your other article was right.

    I hope you do know that many authors of articles are wrong, even the reliable ones? I hope you do know that many scientists and historians are wrong? I hope you do know that believing an article or a scientific paper because it conforms with your opinion cannot be called rational, right?

    Applying the "burden of proof" to history just simply does not work. You can only apply the "burden of evidence" to history and then weigh up the propabilities. Thus our new debate positions are actually better.

    So to say it clearly, this is my last post in this debate. You do not need to answer what I wrote here. If you want to debate, come to the new one, and we'll look at all the arguments I just touched.

    If you do not want to debate but instead be right, then do not debate and most importantly do not learn from those who are of other oppinion than you, no matter how rational their reasons 😁.


  • Chocolate lovers ;)

    @Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    😂y'all searching for Jesus on the internet 😂🤦🤦🤦. When you can just get on your knees (even if you don't at least believe) and ask Him to show himself to you.

    YOU WANNA SEE JESUS CHRIST? Well then PRAY and WAIT ON HIM the truth is in every single humans heart but y'all too deaf to hear it.

    But the Bible says even Christians do not know how to pray.---- In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. (Romans 8:26)

    For those of you who believe, believing is good but it's not enough, get to seek Him. Get to know Him!! The internet is just a confusion device, Jesus Christ is in everyone's heart knowing constantly for you guys to open the door.

    You wrote a verse written by Paul. That is nice but Paul himself originally never wrote Jesus’ story in his gospel. The original gospels have been changed according to time for editing and improving the omissions by the transcribers. It was added in the medieval time. Btw Paul himself never met with Jesus -
    Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. (Acts 9:8), The Jewish name of Saulus was Paul.

    Me personally I Know Jesus Christ is real, He brought heaven to man,

    But the Bible states nobody has ascended into the heaven - No man hath ascended up to heaven.” Not even Enoch or Elijah? (John 3:13).

    He is God (I Am) made man, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. God was with man in the flesh! but man was too filthy to recognize Him, too blind and too Deaf! I know God doesn't exist but He IS . God IS (you need to meditate on the Bible (kjv) to be able to make sense out of this)

    Y'all looking for prove of Jesus and God is real? Just search your hearts respectively, not google (lol).

    But the Bible states we should not follow our hearts-
    Seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring (Num 15:39)
    And Lamentations 3:18 and 3:44 state he doesn’t listen to your prayers until you don't cover out yourself from clouds
    Even when I call out or cry for help, he shuts out my prayer. (Lamentations 3:18 NIV)
    You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through (Lamentations 3:44 NIV)

    I followed my heart and found Batman in it. Yes I meditated on Batman’s comic book to make sense out of it. Thank you. Second point- a preposition must be true, if there is no contradiction in it. It is one law of logic.

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    No need to disprove it. The one who is affirmative claiming, ‘the burden of proof’ implies on him. In this case, you are affirmatively claiming, therefore it implies on you.

    Lets start like this: you can apply this burdon of proof to history in the same way you could with physical things. I mean yeah, of course we should do our best to check all the references and weigh up carefully the propabilities of things. And I will do so.

    But really I think it is insane

    Burden* Probabilities*
    Ad-hominem argument. First respect you opponent and then you may debate.

    to say people who cannot be proven to have existed with absolute certainty did not exist.

    I said theistic God (with certain properties) does not exist with absolute certainty (in that debate, not this one). God of philosophy is different from God of religion. However, you have always inserted your christian God into a philosophical God.
    alt text

    That would mean that 95% of humanity in the past did not exist, and that I have to prove they did before you accept that they do.

    The main proof can be fossil evidence of him. 95 percent of humans existed- we can date their dead bodies with several scientific methods. We have dated 4 billion years ago paintings and our ancestors’ fossils too. We could date his fossil which existed 2000 years ago. Of course scientists have not found any fossil evidence of him- https://medium.com/predict/the-fossil-argument-for-the-existence-of-a-historical-jesus-11d7cdd4a5e7

    So I'll say again what I said before: you cannot expect to find a lot of documents on Jesus, because he was not at all a big political figure.

    You never said to me so. Maybe you said to someone else. You are debating with me rn, not with ‘someone else’.

    And the documents that existed are lost in 2000 years of history. You simply cannot expect to find much other than religious texts.

    There will be no reason to debate on this topic if we do not find anything else than his religious texts.

    This is history. History is not science. Sadly 😂

    A straw-man argument. You cannot refute your own claim. I never said history is/was science or vice-versa. An evidence is something which can be provided for supporting one’s assertion in any type of debate.

    So consequently, even if you were right, that Jesus was added to Josephus Flavius writings and Tacitus writings, your claim that He did not exist is at best circumstancial.

    Circumstantial*

    Claim or evidence ? I mentioned the oldest edition of Tacitus' book. You can read the date or year of his book. Mr. Spaceboy or you did not give evidence for original writing of him. Where is it ?

    you bear the burdon of proof.

    I repeat myself- you started the debate with your assertion, I didn’t. I hold the negative position- Jesus did not historically existed. You cannot shift this burden towards me and it is argument from ignorance. You think your thesis is true because it is not proved to be false (supposedly). Until he is not proved true, it is reasonable to say that he did not exist.

    I would even say that the history that follows after Jesus death allows me to say, There is so much literature on him, so many people who follow his teachings, not only in the roman empire,

    There are more than 12 Gods who were born on the same day of Jesus. And those birth of all 12 Gods were celebrated by the Romans. Romans followed their teachings too.

    but also in the holy land, which is basically christian after the Jews are driven out by the romans in 70 AD. There is so much reason to assume that Jesus was indeed historical, simply by the impact he had in isreal alone,

    Israel*
    Go back to more past (in 4th to 5th centuries). There were some non-orthodox religions which could not reside with Christianity. The scriptures of those religions (awesome books especially in 4th to 5th century) were not copied or destroyed by the Christians. In the fourth century, under the rule of Constantine, his opponents were compelled by threat of death and prison or by dispossession to fall in line.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190723132715/https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13812

    that you need to find more than just the lack of mentioning him in official roman writers, to say he did not exist.

    Did they even mention originally ? Cite a credible website for your claim ‘original lack of mentioning’.

    Unless you don't learn how to respect someone, I cannot debate. Therefore, I leave both debates.



  • @Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    😂y'all searching for Jesus on the internet 😂🤦🤦🤦. When you can just get on your knees (even if you don't at least believe) and ask Him to show himself to you.

    YOU WANNA SEE JESUS CHRIST? Well then PRAY and WAIT ON HIM the truth is in every single humans heart but y'all too deaf to hear it.

    For those of you who believe, believing is good but it's not enough, get to seek Him. Get to know Him!! The internet is just a confusion device, Jesus Christ is in everyone's heart knowing constantly for you guys to open the door. Me personally I Know Jesus Christ is real, He brought heaven to man, He is God (I Am) made man, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. God was with man in the flesh! but man was too filthy to recognize Him, too blind and too Deaf! I know God doesn't exist but He IS . God IS (you need to meditate on the Bible (kjv) to be able to make sense out of this)

    Y'all looking for prove of Jesus and God is real? Just search your hearts respectively, not google (lol).

    I've been trying to get this point across to Vex too 😁

    You wouldn't be worrying for lack of Jesus found in some registry, if you had direct experiential contact with Him. You can indeed find Him in your heart, and indeed, as not just the kjv points out, but even many philosophers note that God does not exist: the verb existing is only valid for anything other than God. Instead God is.

    And those who approach Him with a humble heart, that is not filled with material things, glamour, fame, skill, money will be able to hear His Voice. For me it happened when I read TLIG. I just recognized His Voice and to this day, I cannot deny that it is indeed His Voice speaking...






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