Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?

[pe7erpark3r]

@Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

😂y'all searching for Jesus on the internet 😂🤦🤦🤦. When you can just get on your knees (even if you don't at least believe) and ask Him to show himself to you.

YOU WANNA SEE JESUS CHRIST? Well then PRAY and WAIT ON HIM the truth is in every single humans heart but y'all too deaf to hear it.

For those of you who believe, believing is good but it's not enough, get to seek Him. Get to know Him!! The internet is just a confusion device, Jesus Christ is in everyone's heart knowing constantly for you guys to open the door. Me personally I Know Jesus Christ is real, He brought heaven to man, He is God (I Am) made man, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. God was with man in the flesh! but man was too filthy to recognize Him, too blind and too Deaf! I know God doesn't exist but He IS . God IS (you need to meditate on the Bible (kjv) to be able to make sense out of this)

Y'all looking for prove of Jesus and God is real? Just search your hearts respectively, not google (lol).

I've been trying to get this point across to Vex too :grin:

You wouldn't be worrying for lack of Jesus found in some registry, if you had direct experiential contact with Him. You can indeed find Him in your heart, and indeed, as not just the kjv points out, but even many philosophers note that God does not exist: the verb existing is only valid for anything other than God. Instead God is.

And those who approach Him with a humble heart, that is not filled with material things, glamour, fame, skill, money will be able to hear His Voice. For me it happened when I read TLIG. I just recognized His Voice and to this day, I cannot deny that it is indeed His Voice speaking...

[pe7erpark3r]

@Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

But the Bible says even Christians do not know how to pray.---- In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. (Romans 8:26)

Correct, the bible says that the spirit will help you pray.

You wrote a verse written by Paul. That is nice but Paul himself originally never wrote Jesus’ story in his gospel. The original gospels have been changed according to time for editing and improving the omissions by the transcribers. It was added in the medieval time. Btw Paul himself never met with Jesus -
Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. (Acts 9:8), The Jewish name of Saulus was Paul.

But Paul met and spoke with those who did.

But the Bible states nobody has ascended into the heaven - No man hath ascended up to heaven.” Not even Enoch or Elijah? (John 3:13).

And the bible states that the heavenly kingdom is among them in Jesus Christ.

But the Bible states we should not follow our hearts-
Seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring (Num 15:39)
And Lamentations 3:18 and 3:44 state he doesn’t listen to your prayers until you don't cover out yourself from clouds
Even when I call out or cry for help, he shuts out my prayer. (Lamentations 3:18 NIV)
You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through (Lamentations 3:44 NIV)

I followed my heart and found Batman in it. Yes I meditated on Batman’s comic book to make sense out of it. Thank you. Second point- a preposition must be true, if there is no contradiction in it. It is one law of logic.

You do not believe in batman to be real. You did not find batman in your heart the same way we did find Christ...

Burden* Probabilities*
Ad-hominem argument. First respect you opponent and then you may debate.

I am very sorry. You are absolutely right. I should not have said it in this way...

to say people who cannot be proven to have existed with absolute certainty did not exist.

I said theistic God (with certain properties) does not exist with absolute certainty (in that debate, not this one). God of philosophy is different from God of religion. However, you have always inserted your christian God into a philosophical God.

Lets not return to the other discussion please. In this discussion the christians have spoken of the God of religion, and we spoke of Him in the language of religion, for this is how you can find Him.

The main proof can be fossil evidence of him. 95 percent of humans existed- we can date their dead bodies with several scientific methods. We have dated 4 billion years ago paintings and our ancestors’ fossils too. We could date his fossil which existed 2000 years ago. Of course scientists have not found any fossil evidence of him- https://medium.com/predict/the-fossil-argument-for-the-existence-of-a-historical-jesus-11d7cdd4a5e7

This article argues that the people saying "Jesus does not exist" are making a positive claim and thus have the burden of proof. So yeah, good article.

So I'll say again what I said before: you cannot expect to find a lot of documents on Jesus, because he was not at all a big political figure.
You never said to me so. Maybe you said to someone else. You are debating with me rn, not with ‘someone else’.

Woops sorry, that was in the topic's draft only. My mistake. I deleted that...

Point holds however: it cannot be expected to find much: Jesus was a relatively unknown figure in the roman empire... even many of the prominant figures in the israel of that time are not mentioned in non-religious texts, and they also existed. Many high priests of israel are not mentioned at all, there names are all lost. And yet they were the most prominent political figures at their times...

And the documents that existed are lost in 2000 years of history. You simply cannot expect to find much other than religious texts.

There will be no reason to debate on this topic if we do not find anything else than his religious texts.

Yes, a religious text is enough for a debate about wether the person existed, but there is a lot more.

This is history. History is not science. Sadly :joy:

A straw-man argument. You cannot refute your own claim. I never said history is/was science or vice-versa. An evidence is something which can be provided for supporting one’s assertion in any type of debate.

Yes, but you will not find proof of many many historical events. Evidence yes. Proof no. And for many many historical events you will find an utter lack of evidence other than religious texts...

So consequently, even if you were right, that Jesus was added to Josephus Flavius writings and Tacitus writings, your claim that He did not exist is at best circumstancial.

Circumstantial*

Wehuuweehuu grammar police :yum:

you bear the burdon of proof.

I repeat myself- you started the debate with your assertion, I didn’t. I hold the negative position- Jesus did not historically existed. You cannot shift this burden towards me and it is argument from ignorance. You think your thesis is true because it is not proved to be false (supposedly). Until he is not proved true, it is reasonable to say that he did not exist.

No, there is enough evidence of him in the religious texts. It is reasonable to think he exists, since quite a few other clearly historical figures wrote religious texts about him. It is not true, that a religious text cannot count as evidence.

However I concede that it is reasonable to say he did not exist after providing good arguments as to why the religious texts are not enough evidence.

I would even say that the history that follows after Jesus death allows me to say, There is so much literature on him, so many people who follow his teachings, not only in the roman empire,

There are more than 12 Gods who were born on the same day of Jesus. And those birth of all 12 Gods were celebrated by the Romans. Romans followed their teachings too.

Yeah, they follow somebody's teachings about those Gods, which tend to be hundreds of years old. They did not follow a person's teaching, who lived only a few decades ago.

but also in the holy land, which is basically christian after the Jews are driven out by the romans in 70 AD. There is so much reason to assume that Jesus was indeed historical, simply by the impact he had in isreal alone,

Israel*

Israel is just as an ambivalent term as holy land. People know what holy land means. You know what it means. I will continue to use this term.

Go back to more past (in 4th to 5th centuries). There were some non-orthodox religions which could not reside with Christianity. The scriptures of those religions (awesome books especially in 4th to 5th century) were not copied or destroyed by the Christians. In the fourth century, under the rule of Constantine, his opponents were compelled by threat of death and prison or by dispossession to fall in line.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190723132715/https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13812

So? Seems off-topic to me.

that you need to find more than just the lack of mentioning him in official roman writers, to say he did not exist.

Did they even mention originally ? Cite a credible website for your claim ‘original lack of mentioning’.

"Lack of mention" means that he wasn't mentioned. It is your argument that there is a lack of mention, not mine. I allowed this claim, despite not agreeing. And I said even if it was true, this is not enough.

Unless you don't learn how to respect someone, I cannot debate. Therefore, I leave both debates.

I am very sorry for my use of the word insane. I need to learn to not use such harsh language. It is not just insulting, but an exaggeration too. Exaggeration is a rhetorical trick, and as you know I despise those. Sadly its an old habit of mine to speak like this (also about myself) so please forgive.

[AbhiKerala]

@Vex-Man I'm not trying to prove he existed. I'm just saying it is possible that a certain human named Jesus might have lived in that era and done some good deeds. I mean you dont have to be divine to do some good in the society. But his followers could easily spread news that he did something impossible. I mean we are talking about a 2000 year old civilization. I have seen people even in these times of science believing some random guy did some impossible things. If you think about it the Christian community could be really small in the time of his death , only a bunch of idiots maybe. But once such a powerful resurrection story spreads people will follow him naturally.
I'm pretty sure that the birth date of JC is fake and roots back to some pagan roman traditions. All new religions have copied from existing ones. Also the story of angels visiting him during his birthday could be fake too(probably made after his death).

But proving he lived scientifically is not easy considering there is no archaeological evidence. This also mean we can't say he did not live either. So the best way to put it would be Jesus was a normal human and his divinity was fabricated after his death by his followers to gain popularity for the religion.

@Kaneki-kun Everything you see happens inside your brain . If you can truly believe something exists you might see random things that look like it. You sound more idiotic as you try to sound more intelligent. No Offence ;)

[pe7erpark3r]

One of the main reasons to why there is today (almost) a scientific consensus that Jesus was a historical figure is an archeological one: that there have been found many many christian house churches in israel from the first century. This means, that people who heard little of St. Paul, believed in christ. Many of them have propably known Jesus in person, or at least their parents have. If he did never exist, such a presence of believers in the holy land during the first century is inexplicable.

Edit (2019-11-10): @Vex-Man please disregard this argument for now. I realized we already have too many open arguments in our previous posts. So let us both try to return to the debate rule we reached an agreement on: only 1 argument per post, max 500 words, then wait for the argument to be answered.

So consequently, if you answer to other people please make a separate post. Off-topic arguments should also be separated from the posts that pertain to the debate itself.

After having answered an oponent's argument I think its okay if we create a new post with our next argument, so that there will be max. 2 open arguments (one of the opponent + your new one).

[AbhiKerala]

@pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

You do not believe in batman to be real. You did not find batman in your heart the same way we did find Christ...

I used to believe anime characters were real and I used to fight with my friends because they found other anime characters real.
I mean I understand your point man. Some of this anime characters have helped me in my hard times too. Of course then I grew up and lost my ability to believe 100% in imaginary characters. I'm not joking. We all need an imaginary friend. :D

[pe7erpark3r]

@AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@Vex-Man I'm not trying to prove he existed. I'm just saying it is possible that a certain human named Jesus might have lived in that era and done some good deeds. I mean you dont have to be divine to do some good in the society. But his followers could easily spread news that he did something impossible. I mean we are talking about a 2000 year old civilization. I have seen people even in these times of science believing some random guy did some impossible things.

Yes, and sometimes its true, sometimes its fake, and sometimes its true but luck.

If you think about it the Christian community could be really small in the time of his death , only a bunch of idiots maybe. But once such a powerful resurrection story spreads people will follow him naturally.

I would like to question if this resurrection story really is so powerful. In fact St. Paul states that to the romans the story of somebody coming back from the dead is folly.

I think what is more powerful is that his followers, those that knew him in person, especially the apostles continue to preach this insane story (hope this time I'm not offending anyone :yum:) despite being repeatedly thrown in prison, flagellated, tortered and most of them even killed for it...

I'm pretty sure that the birth date of JC is fake and roots back to some pagan roman traditions. All new religions have copied from existing ones. Also the story of angels visiting him during his birthday could be fake too(probably made after his death).

Not just the date is fake, but also the year. In fact the orthodox church does not celebrate christmas on the 25th. And Jesus was propably born between 4-6 before Christ. That was the error of a monk that came up with our calendar. Incidently around 6 years BC was also the star constellation of the star of the jews (I forgot which planet) and the star of the kings (forgot which other planet too :sweat_smile:) were together. This would have been interpreted as the birth of a jewish king by near eastern astrologists.

But proving he lived scientifically is not easy considering there is no archaeological evidence. This also mean we can't say he did not live either.

This is a good formulation of also my position on the historicity of Jesus.

@Kaneki-kun Everything you see happens inside your brain . If you can truly believe something exists you might see random things that look like it. You sound more idiotic as you try to sound more intelligent. No Offence ;)

Yes and no. It depends on what happens. I concede christians (like any other) often see things as signs, that are clearly random. But. What happens is not quite so random. The things that happen to us should not happen so often statistically. And not to millions...

[Kaneki-kun]

@pe7erpark3r

I said kjv cuz compared to niv, nlt, and some translations there's no omission of verses. But yeah, when you experience Jesus and the Spirit of God personally into your life you don't need any philosopher, google, pastor or whatever to give you proves.

Bible says You need to believe to be able to see. Many of the world will know the Bible as much as Lucifer does and they'll derive philosophies from it whiles being led by false spirits. It's sad but it's OK, because unless you experience darkness you'll never acknowledged light. Because light IS and doesn't exist. People who live in clouds of darkness, conditioning and confusion if you tell them about The Light of the World they'll always tell you there's nothing like light because they don't know and don't even want to believe just a little bit something called 'Light' is ( "exist" in their terminology)

[pe7erpark3r]

@AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

You do not believe in batman to be real. You did not find batman in your heart the same way we did find Christ...

I used to believe anime characters were real and I used to fight with my friends because they found other anime characters real.
I mean I understand your point man. Some of this anime characters have helped me in my hard times too. Of course then I grew up and lost my ability to believe 100% in imaginary characters. I'm not joking. We all need an imaginary friend. :D

The nature of the things we are talking about is very special. You should really check out TLIG and read (quite) a bit. If you open your heart, you might understand what we are talking about, and why it is different from believing that comic characters are real. I mean you can never understand an experience really until you make it. Same for me, I cannot possibly imagine what it feels like to believe that anime characters are real.

[AbhiKerala]

@pe7erpark3r I will tell you what it's like to believe anime characters are real, Childish. :D

[pe7erpark3r]

@Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@pe7erpark3r

I said kjv cuz compared to niv, nlt, and some translations there's no omission of verses. But yeah, when you experience Jesus and the Spirit of God personally into your life you don't need any philosopher, google, pastor or whatever to give you proves.

Yes, you should always get a translation that is close to the original! And if you want to compare biblehub.com's interlinear translation is a good place to get a feeling of what's really written in the original greek or hebrew text.

And just a note for @Vex-Man who always claims that we have no orginal of the bible: We have texts (in and out of the bible) that are 3000 years old and have been copied over the centuries. And the mistakes that are introduced over so many years are miniscule. So we can rely around 99.9% on the greek texts we have of the bible.

Bible says You need to believe to be able to see. Many of the world will know the Bible as much as Lucifer does and they'll derive philosophies from it whiles being led by false spirits. It's sad but it's OK, because unless you experience darkness you'll never acknowledged light. Because light IS and doesn't exist. People who live in clouds of darkness, conditioning and confusion if you tell them about The Light of the World they'll always tell you there's nothing like light because they don't know and don't even want to believe just a little bit something called 'Light' is ( "exist" in their terminology)

I wouldn't judge them so harshly. For believing is not the same as thinking. Believing is trust, and you need to learn trust, by trusting, by making experiences. If we could prove that God exists, they would not have won anything, but that now they think that God exists. But still they would not believe. And faith is what they really need.

[AbhiKerala]

@pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

You should really check out TLIG and read (quite) a bit. If you open your heart, you might understand what we are talking about, and why it is different from believing that comic characters are real.

The fact that you need some kind of God in your life after learning science is what I don't understand. As for missionaries like TLIG , they are just using people's suffering to gain more popularity. Nobody truly needs it but nobody knows that either.

[pe7erpark3r]

@AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@pe7erpark3r I will tell you what it's like to believe anime characters are real, Childish. :D

I agree that one could say that. However experiencing it is still something else. Experiencing a drug induced state of bliss will give you the experience of a profound view change, that makes sense in the moment you experience it. It will not leave you untouched. (Not talking from experiences, basically giving a summary of Sam Harris here). From then forward you will know that other world views are possible and make sense. It will in a way open your mind to something you had absolutely no relation to before, something you could not gauge at all. Same with how it is to drive a car in italy or experiencing God. Impossible to explain...

[Kaneki-kun]

@AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@Vex-Man I'm not trying to prove he existed. I'm just saying it is possible that a certain human named Jesus might have lived in that era and done some good deeds. I mean you dont have to be divine to do some good in the society. But his followers could easily spread news that he did something impossible. I mean we are talking about a 2000 year old civilization. I have seen people even in these times of science believing some random guy did some impossible things. If you think about it the Christian community could be really small in the time of his death , only a bunch of idiots maybe. But once such a powerful resurrection story spreads people will follow him naturally.
I'm pretty sure that the birth date of JC is fake and roots back to some pagan roman traditions. All new religions have copied from existing ones. Also the story of angels visiting him during his birthday could be fake too(probably made after his death).

But proving he lived scientifically is not easy considering there is no archaeological evidence. This also mean we can't say he did not live either. So the best way to put it would be Jesus was a normal human and his divinity was fabricated after his death by his followers to gain popularity for the religion.

@Kaneki-kun Everything you see happens inside your brain . If you can truly believe something exists you might see random things that look like it. You sound more idiotic as you try to sound more intelligent. No Offence ;)

You know, all ye who are chackra and meditation gurus (if that's you as your reasoning is no different from them) you think you're somewhere in your life. You think you have seeing light and on the true path to enlightenment. But you're just the favorites of the ruler of this world, the devil and his angels have feed you with truths beautiful as the moon light. You think you seeing the Sun light but you're just lost, youre guided by nature, Cosmo, universe (creations of God) . Your spiritualism is empty because you lack the Spirit of God.

You say I'm idiotic? Oh well let me be idiotic in Christ, it's far better than to be intelligent in the world.

[pe7erpark3r]

@AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

You should really check out TLIG and read (quite) a bit. If you open your heart, you might understand what we are talking about, and why it is different from believing that comic characters are real.

Science is a method of determining what objective reality is. It has its limits. We have no idea if anything science doesn't understand yet is true or false. Science is always based on experiment, on experience.

The fact that you need some kind of God in your life after learning science is what I don't understand. As for missionaries like TLIG , they are just using people's suffering to gain more popularity. Nobody truly needs it but nobody knows that either.

And sometimes you make experiences that clearly break through the limits of science. And I wasn't suffering especially before or suffering less after... Dude, you just do not know what you are talking about, its quite that simple. You do not have the experience we have.

[AbhiKerala]

@pe7erpark3r Dude my point is we can all experience what we want. You want some reality where we are all creations ? Yeah you can have that if you believe it that deep. Why do you think the Bible asks you to believe in the first place.

[AbhiKerala]

@Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

You say I'm idiotic? Oh well let me be idiotic in Christ, it's far better than to be intelligent in the world.

I truly wish you all the best in your adventures with him.

[Kaneki-kun]

@Vex-Man I said search your heart not follow your heart. And Christians ( born again people in Christ) and the rest of the world truly don't know how to pray, but it doesn't mean they don't know who to say a prayer.

(What is prayer? Prayer normally is a communication between man and God. But the people doesn't even know that. They think prayer is making noise and jumping around in the name of God and prayer. God is in constant listening mode on every heart, as a matter of fact the bible says "our souls (thus our hearts) are the very heart beats of God. So If you just humble yourself and seek God with the heart and mind of a baby you will definitely see His presence in your life)

Now what that scripture means in saying Christians don't know how to pray is I) they don't know what to pray for and ii) don't have the words to please God with their prayers unless led by the Spirit of God.
That's why He (The Holy Spirit) intercedes for us before God. In other words, He shapes our (Christians, born again people in Christ) prayers to the form and format that is pleasing to God.

And I can testify to that, when I became a born again Christian I knew shit about prayer, I didn't even feel like saying a prayer. When everyone else was praying my eyes were just closed and I'd be like an illiterate, just listening to others praying or I'd say a little prayer and that's it.
But then as I grew in Christianity (living like Christ) through the Spirit of God and His teachings I began to know how to pray. And when the need to pray comes He tells me exactly what to pray for, He gives me the words.

PERSONALY I don't need anyone on here to believe or even listen to what I'm saying. But this is my experience, this is my experiment, I tested the waters and The Truth revealed itself to me. I don't even come from a Christian family first of all but this is my testimony. Whoever wishes to say is bs can say #freedomofspeech..

but know y'all should know this *1 John 4:2-3 Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. Let he who has an ear hears wisdom and seize from foolishness.

[Kaneki-kun]

@pe7erpark3r God isn't even the God of religion it's just society that labeled Him like that. But yeah I understand for the sake of this discussion you have to put it like that.

The thing is many people don't even know what's God's name (and even Christians and many religious leaders) so they confuse Him with so many stuffs and rubbish.

Following the teachings of the Holy Spirit, God (I Am is His name) never brought any religion, from the Old to New Testament there nowhere stating that and if there is show me.
It was people, as you can read through out the Old Testament "The people of God" and at that time everything was by the law, and there was nothing like grace as we see today, so just anybody couldnt come and claim he's a "pupil of God" and it had to be like that.

Then Jesus Christ came with Grace and it cancelled condemnation by the law. So from there we started hearing about Christians and Christianity which first was a mockery and insult labelling followers of the teachings of Jesus. Then as time went on it became known by all and became a religion, a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion. And our times came where religion became the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power and a particular system of faith and worship. And people thirsty for power took advantage of it to control, rule and cause harm to society with the help of the devil, the pupil's ignorance and laziness.

[Kaneki-kun]

@pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@Kaneki-kun said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

@pe7erpark3r

I said kjv cuz compared to niv, nlt, and some translations there's no omission of verses. But yeah, when you experience Jesus and the Spirit of God personally into your life you don't need any philosopher, google, pastor or whatever to give you proves.

Yes, you should always get a translation that is close to the original! And if you want to compare biblehub.com's interlinear translation is a good place to get a feeling of what's really written in the original greek or hebrew text.

And just a note for @Vex-Man who always claims that we have no orginal of the bible: We have texts (in and out of the bible) that are 3000 years old and have been copied over the centuries. And the mistakes that are introduced over so many years are miniscule. So we can rely around 99.9% on the greek texts we have of the bible.

Bible says You need to believe to be able to see. Many of the world will know the Bible as much as Lucifer does and they'll derive philosophies from it whiles being led by false spirits. It's sad but it's OK, because unless you experience darkness you'll never acknowledged light. Because light IS and doesn't exist. People who live in clouds of darkness, conditioning and confusion if you tell them about The Light of the World they'll always tell you there's nothing like light because they don't know and don't even want to believe just a little bit something called 'Light' is ( "exist" in their terminology)

I wouldn't judge them so harshly. For believing is not the same as thinking. Believing is trust, and you need to learn trust, by trusting, by making experiences. If we could prove that God exists, they would not have won anything, but that now they think that God exists. But still they would not believe. And faith is what they really need.

Oh no I'm not judging them fam, I'm just saying the truth. I mean I don't think there's anything condemning in what I said

[spaceboy]

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