petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance

[pe7erpark3r]

As promised lets talk about the shroud of turin. Actually I think I don't have to write much. I'll do a short summary and simply refer you to the (english) wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin), which goes into detail about everything.

The shroud of turin is supposedly the shroud in which Jesus' dead body lay in the grave when he resurrected.

It appears, that the image is a negative (as in non-digital photography) and seemingly was burned into the shroud by an immensly strong light (said in layman terms). Nobody was able to reproduce this, since the energy required for a modern laser far surpasses what any reasonable lab would be able to use. And the results are far from what the shroud is.

There was a big media hype around 1986 when the shroud was carbon dated for the first time to around the year 1350. However afterwards the scientific debate continued because the samples taken do not actually allow for a conclusive dating since they are from the outer range of the shroud which was propably repaired in the middle ages... So basically everything (most of the other forensic results) except the carbon dating in 1986 speaks for the shroud being indeed old enough to be the very shroud Jesus was buried in.

And lets not forget that the blood type of the stains on the shroud was also found on the cloth of Manopello and in many of the eucharistic miracles (and is the rarest bloodtype there is: AB. No resus factor could be tested.)

So, it can definitely count as evidence. For further reading I simply refer you to wikipedia.

[pe7erpark3r]

Now we'll come to a rather tricky piece of evidence: the fact that the body of some saints didn't rot away. It is tricky, because its not conclusive at all. Here's why: Not only the bodies of saints have been found to not rot sometimes, Also John and Jane Does, and Mr. Smith of course (e.g. normal people). I heard that in china there is even such a dead guy who is revered as a God. It seems to happen a lot more often with saints though...

So, you might ask me: then why do you even mention it?

There are 2 very curious cases I know of, that actually seem more conclusive.

St. Nepomuk was – according to legend – the priest to whom the queen went to confess. He was killed by the king, supposedly because he did not tell the king about the contents his wife's confession. When he was exhumed in 1719, 300 years after his death, all of his body had rotted away. Except for his tongue. And this is definitely not something that just happens naturally. However the only thing we have are the exhuming party's accounts. Can we trust them?

With St. Anthony of Padua again the tongue did not rot in 30 years until he was exhumed. But this too was before scientific times. However what was found when his grave was opened for the second time in 1981, suggests that the accounts of the first opening might indeed be true.

So, even though one can call this evidence, it is certainly weak. And as such it is not part of the evidence that the church uses to beatify people. It is curious. But should not be overrated.

[pe7erpark3r]

Throughout history quite a few people (for example Saint Pio of Pietrelcina) have had stigmata, which are wounds on the body, that inexplicably appear in one or all of the following places: The hands, the feet, on the upper body around the height of the heart, and sometimes little wounds on the head. They are commonly associated with Christ's crucifixion, e.g. the wounds of the nails and of the crown of thorns.

These wounds tend to stay open for many years. In the case of Saint Pio they closed a few hours before his death. Most of them also have visions, but as we have seen, visions in and of themselves do not qualify as evidence.

Skeptics say, that they might associate so strongly with Christ that it shows on their bodies. But then again: do people who believe they are bulls grow horns?

But it gets even more curious with these people. Some of them, for example Therese Neumann, seem to be able to live without eating or drinking anything other than one piece of the eucharist each day for years! Well that is what they say. However it is really fun to read the accounts of debunkers who go to live with them, observe what they do for months, and then finally give up after realizing, that they cannot find any evidence of them eating.

What could be the natural cause of something like this? Did these people develop the ability to photosynthesize? :joy:

[wet teri]

@pe7erpark3r said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

What could be the natural cause of something like this? Did these people develop the ability to photosynthesize? :joy:

Now you have me humming Simon and Garfunkel's Kodachrome.
"Mama don't take my Kodachrome away-ay"

[pe7erpark3r]

@wet-teri said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

@pe7erpark3r said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

What could be the natural cause of something like this? Did these people develop the ability to photosynthesize? :joy:

Now you have me humming Simon and Garfunkel's Kodachrome.
"Mama don't take my Kodachrome away-ay"

Just listening to this track the first time! Beautiful music :heart_eyes:

[pe7erpark3r]

@ ScruffyMutt said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

because with no miracles then there would be no "evidence of God".

What other things would a supernatural entity do but miracles?

As shown there are different kinds of miracles, some with forensic properties, but of course all things that God does are supernatural, duh...

[wet teri]

@pe7erpark3r I don't think I would have called that particular song beautiful myself. However they do harmonize with each other really well. As for beautiful I would suggest the sound of silence and Scarborough fair.

[unholyshrine]

Me, as a human, which couldn't know what is happening on the transcedental realm, i just better to assume that God or "other highest entities that believed to be exist by the believers" is totally unknown and unknowable. I respect the believers, i love bible, bc there is lot of simple lifehacks, but i still in a state of agnostic, just appreciating people what believes.

[unholyshrine]

We are a human, it is better to just accept that we have an unbreakable absolute limit of knowing the total universe. (unless if you are an entity that could be transcedent and immanent paradoxically in the same time, therefore you are more than human, or maybe you aren't human). sorry 4 bad grammar,

[pe7erpark3r]

@wet-teri said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

@pe7erpark3r I don't think I would have called that particular song beautiful myself. However they do harmonize with each other really well. As for beautiful I would suggest the sound of silence and Scarborough fair.

Yeah, well those are definitely beautiful :smile:

[pe7erpark3r]

@unholyshrine said in petrapark3r and ScruffyMutt debate God's existance:

We are a human, it is better to just accept that we have an unbreakable absolute limit of knowing the total universe. (unless if you are an entity that could be transcedent and immanent paradoxically in the same time, therefore you are more than human, or maybe you aren't human). sorry 4 bad grammar,

Incidentelly christians believe that the soul is of transcendent nature, that it can indeed be close to God. However since knowing God in a rational sense is indeed not possible I do not disagree with you about accepting that there are things that cannot be known.

This is a part of my personal believe even. I believe that the fact, that God does not reveal Himself in a way that we could directly see him is due to free will. He believes in us, to make the right decision, He does not take our freedom from us. And thus he also wants to be believed in, trusted in. He doesn't show Himself in the most direct way, because then He would take our freedom away.

Christians also believe, that sin makes us blind. In other words it is not simply that God does not show Himself, it is rather that the evil we do makes us not see Him. And I have made that experience countless times in my life, that I did something that I knew to be bad, and almost immediatly I fell blind to it, and repeated many times, until I "woke up" again.

I think this is a deeply psychological thing too. I mean every Mafia Boss rationalizes what he does by saying that he's doing something good for the community by organizing crime, instead of a disorganized set of thieves and rivaling groups. Evil is a really fascinating thing in the end.

[wet teri]

Glad that you enjoyed them. It's always nice to know that you were able to give someone something that they didn't know they were missing.