Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?



  • @Vex-Man is of the opinion, that Jesus was not a historical person.

    I hold the position, that Jesus was indeed a historical figure.

    So how could one prove or disprove that Jesus did exist?

    The first problem of course is that all that which we are talking about happened 2000 years ago. We have a lot of religious texts, in the bible and also apocryphical ones that talk about Jesus' deeds. Is a religious text enough to prove a person's existence?

    The question is, what should we expect to find other than christian texts? Should Jesus not be in some register?

    I'll let Vex, or anybody who wants to join in, open the debate 😂

    Please note I'm a busy man, so the debate will be slow like any other 😋



  • @pe7erpark3r What if all holy books like Bible,Quran etc are just story tales or epics (like Iliad,Odyssey,Mahabharata etc) which were later mistaken by people to be religious scriptures?


  • Movie Buff

    I believe he existed. But he was probably a normal jew who thought too much about the universe and the society. I'm not christian but I feel he has done many good things even as a human and should be admired as a historical figure.


  • Movie Buff

    @Sij There is a structural difference. In both Quran and Bible different people are talking about a messenger of God and his actions. But the legends like Odyssey , Iliad are stories. As for Mahabharata and Ramayana, although they have the structure of a legend they are both considered as holy texts in India along with other religions texts. So I don't think books of monotheistic religions were originally supposed to be legends.



  • @AbhiKerala I was just talking of a theoretical possibility.

    It seems that the modern bible (which is a combination of old and new testament) is a collection of several books. Jesus is mentioned in the new testament in the form of stories and collection of incidents.

    The Quran directly says that it is revealed by the god and it is written in a format as if god is directly talking to humans.

    I dont know much about those epics(Iliad,Odyssey,Mahabharata etc) though.


  • Global Veteran Hella Assassins

    If hid didn't exist, why we are speaking about him now? And at the same time Jesus is also mentioned not only in Bible.
    For example he was mentioned by roman historian Gaius Cornelius Tacitus and roman-jewish historian Josephus Flavius.
    As Peter mentioned, besides the Gospels at the beginning of the first century, there were lot's of apocrypha that were also based on the events that happened to Jesus. (Lately all this books were banned, by the church, but some of them have been saved to the present day. The Nag Hammadi library for example.)


  • Chocolate lovers ;)

    @spaceboy said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    If hid didn't exist, why we are speaking about him now?

    My counter question to you- If Spiderman did not exist, why children or even adults talk about him now ?

    And at the same time Jesus is also mentioned not only in Bible.

    The Bible is a book of which first edition does not exist anymore. Will you indeed cite that book to me ? None of the messenger i.e. Paul and Peter met with Jesus who supposedly existed on this earth.

    For example he was mentioned by roman historian Gaius Cornelius Tacitus and roman-jewish historian Josephus Flavius.

    Here is what Josephus wrote-
    18.3.3 — “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.
    For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the
    truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when,
    upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those
    who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored
    to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.
    And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
    20.9.1 — “...brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was
    James...”

    The point should be noted the phrase “was called Christ” is awful and some transcriber inserted it. The later lines which Josephs referred to Jesus was the son of Damneus. That sentences looks like a christian was hoping to prove that Jesus existed. Of course it was a later assertion done by a church historian Eusebius. He referred it in 325 CE. At that time, Emperor Constantine's Council was present. I got to know thru these reasons-

    1. Inspite of this fact that Josephus' writings were widely read, none Christian or scholar before Eusebius referred to it, especially not the Christian scholar Origen, whose library Mr. Eusebius used
    2. Oringen wrote that he (josephus) never believed in Christ.
    3. If the devoutly religious Jew Josephus really thought that Jesus was the Messiah, he would become a christian.
    4. There was never ever a “tribe of Christians”
    5. If you did read his texts carefully, you would know his texts were out of the context. There was a paragraph around his texts and it really interrupts his story line. This is how next paragraph begins from, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder...". It was referred to the previous paragraph in which Pilate along with his soldiers did massacre of Jews in Jerusalem
    6. Josephus did write about minor-minor people of his time extensively. A single paragraph written on Messiah is impossible.

    Tecitus wrote about “christos” (in 117 CE) and christos were being executed by Pilate. He could have used name ‘Jesus’ but not his religious title ‘Christos’. The second point you could note is, the reference of Tacitus’ was never mentioned by Origen, Eusebius, Tertullian in 3rd century. Tertullian was the one who quoted Tacitus’ great deal. I have a strong evidence https://web.archive.org/web/20190723132715/http://www.textexcavation.com/documents/zaratacituschrestianos.pdf which shows the tacitus’ oldest copy was modified to change “Chrestianos” (i.e. "Chrestians" - the followers of Chrestus) to Christianos" (i.e. "Christians" – the followers of Christ). Generally, it was modified or manipulated in 1468 because there was no mention prior to it.

    As Peter mentioned, besides the Gospels at the beginning of the first century, there were lot's of apocrypha that were also based on the events that happened to Jesus. (Lately all this books were banned, by the church, but some of them have been saved to the present day. The Nag Hammadi library for example.)

    Paul and Peter never referred to Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee, Calvary or Golgotha or any other pilgrim. Paul did not write about earthly existence, life and his teachings. The epistles which were the part of paul’s writing, were written after 48 CE. Both did not mention any type of miracle which worked, his trial, his virgin birth, his disciples or the empty tomb

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Vex-Man is of the opinion, that Jesus was not a historical person.

    I hold the position, that Jesus was indeed a historical figure.

    I hold the position that Jesus was a fictional character.

    So how could one prove or disprove that Jesus did exist?

    No need to disprove it. The one who is affirmative claiming, ‘the burden of proof’ implies on him. In this case, you are affirmatively claiming, therefore it implies on you.

    The first problem of course is that all that which we are talking about happened 2000 years ago. We have a lot of religious texts, in the bible and also apocryphical ones that talk about Jesus' deeds. Is a religious text enough to prove a person's existence?

    The question is, what should we expect to find other than christian texts? Should Jesus not be in some register?

    I'll let Vex, or anybody who wants to join in, open the debate 😂

    I have joined already.

    Please note I'm a busy man, so the debate will be slow like any other 😋

    I too am busy xD

    @AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    I believe he existed. But he was probably a normal jew who thought too much about the universe and the society. I'm not christian but I feel he has done many good things even as a human and should be admired as a historical figure.

    I said ‘burden of proof’ not 'burden of believe or belief'.


  • tws gay club but no homo Watch Anime Eyes Gamers

    @Vex-Man seems like u research on it a lot



  • Countless people have killed and died, built societies, loved and hated others over the idea of Jesus Christ. Does that make him real? Maybe more real than if he actually lived and died 2000 years ago


  • Movie Buff

    @Vex-Man I think Mahabharata was written some 1000 years prior to Jesus. And the old kingdoms of Bharata spread as far as modern Afgan. Maybe the stories of JC's divinity is influenced by stories of Krishna. But still I believe JC was real and his story was made divine .


  • tws gay club but no homo

    @pe7erpark3r If you try to prove Jesus you should at least try to prove gays as well, since gays are by far the most persecuted,disbelieved (and invalidated!) group in the world.

    @AllAboutGay is of the opinion, that gays were historical persons.

    I hold the position, that gays were indeed historical figures.

    So how could one prove or disprove that gays did exist?

    The first problem of course is that all that which we are talking about happened 6900 years ago. We have a lot of LGBT texts, in the book of homosexuality and also apocryphical ones that talk about gays' deeds. Is an LGBT text enough to prove a gay's existence?

    The question is, what should we expect to find other than LGBT texts? Should gays not be in some register?

    I'll let straight people, or anybody who wants to join in, open the debate ❤

    Please note I'm a gay man, so the debate will be gay like any other 😋



  • I skimmed these pages and @spaceboy should probably get most kudos just for staying on-topic. But I'm not criticizing. As a veteran of debates like these, I can confirm that everyone has their own hobby-horse to shoe-horn into the debate. Would we really have it any other way?

    Me, I long ago had my head turned by the books of Barbara Thiering, whose forensic, ultra-scholarly writing took in both the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi and contemporary apocrypha, to suggest the J-Man was 'just' part of some Jewish-cult-to-end-all-Jewish-cults. The research not only seems detailed enough, but it also fits my personal level of pessimism about a tangible, interventionist God.

    But if there's one thing I hate in religious debates (and sorry to the above users who've done it), it's when people draw a parallel between fictional characters like Batman, Spider-Man, etc, and Jesus / God. God, if He / It exists will necessarily transcend context. So if there's a story where Batman breaks down the fourth wall and boldy presumes to give the reader religious instructions (and even with the freak-out stories of Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman, I don't think there has been), you can legitimately compare him to Jesus. But not until then.

    Also, I stand with @AllAboutGay on the existence of The Gays in ancient antiquity. This prehistoric skelington has the same distinctive gap in his teeth as John Inman:

    gay skeleton.jpg



  • @AllAboutGay I thought you were going to explain a theory about Jesus being gay. XD 👍


  • Chocolate lovers ;)

    @Dubidubiduba33 said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Vex-Man seems like u research on it a lot

    True.

    @AbhiKerala said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Sij There is a structural difference. In both Quran and Bible different people are talking about a messenger of God and his actions. But the legends like Odyssey , Iliad are stories. As for Mahabharata and Ramayana, although they have the structure of a legend they are both considered as holy texts in India along with other religions texts. So I don't think books of monotheistic religions were originally supposed to be legends.

    I agree with you but the life of those characters was still near or same to one-another. Lets take an exmaple of Jesus (from the Bible) and Krishna (from the Mahabharat)-

    1. Both had a divine father
    2. Both were dead by violent deaths
    3. While being infants both were tried to be killed by tyrants.
    4. Announcement of stars before their birth
    5. Both had a virgin mother too

  • Movie Buff

    @pe7erpark3r said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    You do not believe in batman to be real. You did not find batman in your heart the same way we did find Christ...

    I used to believe anime characters were real and I used to fight with my friends because they found other anime characters real.
    I mean I understand your point man. Some of this anime characters have helped me in my hard times too. Of course then I grew up and lost my ability to believe 100% in imaginary characters. I'm not joking. We all need an imaginary friend. 😄


  • Soul Searchers Watch Anime Eyes Gamers

    @pe7erpark3r

    I said kjv cuz compared to niv, nlt, and some translations there's no omission of verses. But yeah, when you experience Jesus and the Spirit of God personally into your life you don't need any philosopher, google, pastor or whatever to give you proves.

    Bible says You need to believe to be able to see. Many of the world will know the Bible as much as Lucifer does and they'll derive philosophies from it whiles being led by false spirits. It's sad but it's OK, because unless you experience darkness you'll never acknowledged light. Because light IS and doesn't exist. People who live in clouds of darkness, conditioning and confusion if you tell them about The Light of the World they'll always tell you there's nothing like light because they don't know and don't even want to believe just a little bit something called 'Light' is ( "exist" in their terminology)


  • Global Veteran Hella Assassins

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    My counter question to you- If Spiderman did not exist, why children or even adults talk about him now ?

    Spiderman was appeared first in comics nearly 40 years ago, and we can discuss him now, because of mass media. Will he be so popular in 4019? Or maybe next crusade will be done in a name of Tony Stark? Who knows.. 😆

    Muhammad lived nearly 1500 years ago, and people are speaking about him today.
    Yeshua lived nearly 2000 years ago, and people are speaking about him today.
    Siddhartha lived nearly 2500 years ago, and he is also well known.
    Others also can be mentioned here in this list.

    And those events were happened, when humanity have no ability to communicate so fast and worldwide as now, but at the same time all these persons become world known. Personally for me it means, that the event had a historical-cultural weight, and persons which are related to these events can not be excluded, like a fictional characters.

    Nice points about Josephus and Tacitus, I like that. I wish to divein more in it.

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    As Peter mentioned, besides the Gospels at the beginning of the first century, there were lot's of apocrypha that were also based on the events that happened to Jesus. (Lately all this books were banned, by the church, but some of them have been saved to the present day. The Nag Hammadi library for example.)

    Paul and Peter never referred to Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee, Calvary or Golgotha or any other pilgrim. Paul did not write about earthly existence, life and his teachings. The epistles which were the part of paul’s writing, were written after 48 CE. Both did not mention any type of miracle which worked, his trial, his virgin birth, his disciples or the empty tomb

    I mean @pe7erpark3r here and not an apostle. And my thoughts were relates about Jesus mentioning in early Christian's apocrypha. And the ideas of these texts are far different from the official version. Fog cannot appear without a fire. That make me think, that someone existed. Yeshua or maybe he had another name. Someone was crucified. It was very popular type of execution in Rome of those time. And the execution of these man, became a start point of Christianity religion. That what I mean under words 'Historical Jesus'.

    P. S.: Unfortunately we won't know the truth about those events. I mean the real story-line, the real chain of events.. Maybe Zarathustra will know, or Abdul Alhazred.. But not we..


  • Chocolate lovers ;)

    @spaceboy said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    My counter question to you- If Spiderman did not exist, why children or even adults talk about him now ?

    Spiderman was appeared first in comics nearly 40 years ago, and we can discuss him now, because of mass media. Will he be so popular in 4019?

    1962 plus 2000 = 3962. Yes, he may become the most famous character.

    In classical logic, we call it argument from Popularity though.
    Popularity of someone does not justify truth or reason.

    Or maybe next crusade will be done in a name of Tony Stark? Who knows.. 😆

    Those people who fought for the name of their religion, believed in lies. When they cannot and could not give any evidence for their supported beliefs, they initialized a fight. Your analogy is absurd here. People do not fight because spider-man has given a commandment for “I am true and other fictional characters are false.” Suppose a group of kids believe in spider-man only and second group believes in Batman only. The doctrine of spider man instructs his followers to fight and fight until the followers of other religions do not get ceased. (My last three sentences contain surah no 9 verse no 13 and 14 of the Koran; One commandment of Biblic God)

    Muhammad lived nearly 1500 years ago, and people are speaking about him today.

    Muhammad did not exist. There is no proof of his existence either. People are talking about harry potter too today.

    Yeshua lived nearly 2000 years ago, and people are speaking about him today.

    I say he did not. Prove me wrong ! People are talking about superman too today.

    Siddhartha lived nearly 2500 years ago, and he is also well known.

    Siddhartha existed as a person and he was a skeptic. He was neither a God nor a messenger of God. We are talking about a theist’s existence, not a skeptic’s. He himself rejected any fictional character or God.

    I have a video for you (for most characters)-

    Others also can be mentioned here in this list.

    I like your last line- Others also can be mentioned here in this list. There were more than 10 deities of Egypt, Persia and Greece before the birth of Jesus. All those deities have same stories like Jesus.
    Under the rule of Constantine, Faith-head Christians burnt off their teachings and did not let them to copy their books.

    And those events were happened, when humanity have no ability to communicate so fast and worldwide as now,

    100 percent true

    but at the same time all these persons become world known. Personally for me it means, that the event had a historical-cultural weight, and persons which are related to these events can not be excluded, like a fictional characters.

    Show me those historical-cultural evidences first. You have shown me only 2 writers, as far as I know- Josephus and Tacitus. Both were not even contemporary eye-witnesses for giving any evidence for Jesus existence who supposedly lived on our earth. There is around 100 years of Gap between their earliest writings and Jesus' alleged birth.

    Nice points about Josephus and Tacitus, I like that. I wish to divein more in it.

    Thank you.

    @Vex-Man said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    As Peter mentioned, besides the Gospels at the beginning of the first century, there were lot's of apocrypha that were also based on the events that happened to Jesus. (Lately all this books were banned, by the church, but some of them have been saved to the present day. The Nag Hammadi library for example.)

    Paul and Peter never referred to Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee, Calvary or Golgotha or any other pilgrim. Paul did not write about earthly existence, life and his teachings. The epistles which were the part of paul’s writing, were written after 48 CE. Both did not mention any type of miracle which worked, his trial, his virgin birth, his disciples or the empty tomb

    I mean @pe7erpark3r here and not an apostle. And my thoughts were relates about Jesus mentioning in early Christian's apocrypha.

    Christian’s apocrypha was written by his disciples, not by his messengers. We do not even know his disciples existed or not.

    And the ideas of these texts are far different from the official version. Fog cannot appear without a fire.

    Fog cannot appear without a fire through gaps. His first two disciples (peter and mark) supposedly existed a long time after Jesus’ death.

    That make me think, that someone existed. Yeshua or maybe he had another name. Someone was crucified. It was very popular type of execution in Rome of those time. And the execution of these man, became a start point of Christianity religion. That what I mean under words 'Historical Jesus'.

    Osiris/Serapis, Inanna/Ishtar, Horus, Perseus, Bacchus/Dionysus, Attis, Isis, Hermes, Romulus, Adonis, Hercules/Heracles, Zalmoxis, Tammuz, Asclepius, Krishna, and Prometheus.- All had same character like Jesus. Many of them were got died by violence and resurrected. One God among them might be existed. All had a divine mother and a divine father. All of them were tried to be killed by monsters/tyrants when they were infants. Many of above gods' birth was announced by their stars.

    Adonis, Inanna, Osiris, Romulus, Zalmoxis --- got 'a type of baptism or communion', all 5 Gods won over their deaths, all 5 Gods were son or daughter of a God and they all predates Christianity. Even though all five were savior Gods and went thru struggles or thru sufferings.

    Before the execution of Christians and in 4 to 5th centuries their scriptures were burnt. The Opponents and religion people of those Persian, Greek and Egypt mythologies and non-orthodox competing christian versions were compelled by threat of death and prison, or of dispossession to fall in line.

    P. S.: Unfortunately we won't know the truth about those events. I mean the real story-line, the real chain of events.. Maybe Zarathustra will know, or Abdul Alhazred.. But not we..

    Agree.

    The following reply is for pet, not for spaceboy-

    @pe7erpark3r Start a new thread and make rules of a debate first. You did not make any rule of this debate. You won't define my position, I will. You are not vex man. That debate will be pursued between 1 on 1 (only you and me). I won't educate you every time. If you don't know how to make a thread, I can make one. You cannot invite me and get my position yourself.

    I am not here to educate you. I hoped that you know general English. Here is a Wikipedia article for defining which statement is affirmative and which is negative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_and_negation

    Affirmative sentence- vex man goes with his girlfriend on a date.
    Negative sentence- vex man does not go with his girlfriend on a date.
    Interrogative sentence- Does Vex man go with his girlfriend on a date ?
    Interrogative negative- Doesn't Vex man go with his girlfriend on a date ?
    Imperial sentence- Go vex man with your girlfriend on a date
    Exclamatory sentence- Aha ! vex man goes with his girlfriend on a date

    A negative sentence consists of ----------Does not, did not, may not, shall not, will not, were not, was not, was never, is never, is not, are not, am not, am never etc
    A positive or affirmative sentence consists of --------Does, do, might, may, shall, will, can etc.

    I also hope you will behave in a new debate. Whenever you run out of rational arguments, you clutch personal offenses.
    @AbhiKerala, @Indrid-Cold, @spaceboy, @Kaneki-kun, @Sij All 5 users behave with enough respect and manners.

    P.S. if you dont know what a theistic god is, you cannot misinterpret anyone's position. You can ask me or you can look for Google. A 'Theistic god' is always related to philosophy, not to any specific religion. I was debating about philosopical god in that thread. In this debate, we had to debate jesus existed as a person or not. The problem with you is, you dont read between the lines and you always want to go ahead.

    I never said Christ (as a person) did not exist with/without absolute certainty. We were debating Jesus as a person exist or not. We weren't debating Jesus existed as a god or not or a philosophical god existed or not in this thread. These are three different thesis. I hope you understand the difference among all 3 thesis. If you had presumed something into your mind, you would not have imposed your presumption on your opponent. My thesis for Mr. Jesus' existence will be-

    Jesus' (as a person) existence seems to be improbable to me [Edited: just like you misinterpreted I too misinterpreted]


  • tws gay club but no homo

    @pe7erpark3r Although i am a believer of LGBT, i have some gay opinions about other religions as well
    ❤

    I just came here to say here that muslims are technically christians.
    According to the bible, whoever will admit that Jesus is from god will not perish.
    Islam agrees that Jesus is from god though it rejects the idea that the one and only god has any offspring. Islam gives high importance to Jesus.
    Also, many gay things done in the name of Islam or Christianity are not actually parts of Islam or Christianity but the results of misconceptions 😋

    But all humans should convert to LGBT to achieve universal love ❤


  • Chocolate lovers ;)

    @AllAboutGay @AllAboutGay said in Vex Debate: was Jesus historical?:

    @pe7erpark3r Although i am a believer of LGBT, i have some gay opinions about other religions as well
    ❤

    I just came here to say here that Muslims are technically Christians.

    You are definitely incorrect. Christians are considered as disbelievers in the Koran so neither is continuity of each-other-

    They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (Surah- An-Nisa 5:17)

    According to the bible, whoever will admit that Jesus is from god will not perish.

    John 3:16 speaks about your verse so you are correct- or God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

    Islam agrees that Jesus is from god though it rejects the idea that the one and only god has any offspring. Islam gives high importance to Jesus.

    Surah 5 verse no 72 states that whoever associates allah with Jesus will be burnt in fire. As you associate Allah with other Gods, you will be hunted by the Allah.

    They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

    Surah 5 verse no 73 apparently states Christians alike other disbelievers will be punished. The Koran does not only reject the Biblical God but also rejects Christianity's trinity concept (God, holy spirit, son)-

    They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

    Surah 4 verse 47 states followers of religions other than Islam, will be disfigured-
    O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

    According to a letter by prophet Muhammad (recorded in hadith books like Sahih Bukhari), islam is just a continuation and fulfilment of Christianity and not an entirely new religion.

    Fulfillment*
    You have distorted the real letter. I can quote the letter from Wikipedia-
    Narrated 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.
    Where does he say islam is not a new religion but continiuty of christianity ? Source- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_views_on_Christians

    Also, many gay things done in the name of Islam or Christianity are not actually parts of Islam or Christianity but the results of misconceptions 😋

    I disagree with you. There is no misconception dude. The Islam and the Christianity are two biggest threats to humanity. Although I am not an anti-theist but everyone should know the truth. So first I will grab the Koran and will initialize to read verses-

    Surah 4 verse no. 89 orders Muslims to kill disbelievers who try to change their views-

    They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

    Surah 7 verse no 4 describes how many cities of disbelievers are destroyed by Muhammad-

    And how many cities have We destroyed, and Our punishment came to them at night or while they were sleeping at noon.

    Surah no 8 verses numbers 15 and 16 recommend Muslims to fight with disbelievers and whoever comes back from fight, will be tortured by the Allah-

    O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight]. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

    Surah 8 verse 39 recommends Muslims to persecute every religion except of Islam-
    And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

    Surrah no 8 verses no 59 and 60 instruct Muslims to let not escaping the disbelievers even after a peaceful treaty with them-

    And let not those who disbelieve think they will escape. Indeed, they will not cause failure [to Allah ]. And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

    Surah 8 verse no 65 instructs Muslims to provoke disbelievers because Allah has hope that Muslims will win over disbelievers-
    O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.

    Surah 22 verse 15 suggests those people to suicide who think Allah won’t support Muhammad -

    Whoever should think that Allah will not support [Prophet Muhammad] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath], and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]?
    Whole chapter 22 depicts Allah as a terrorist. It sounds like he is an al-qaedian terrorist- 22:1, 22:2, 22:3, 22:8, 22:9, 22:15, 22;18, 22:19-22, 22:25, 22:45, 22:47, 22:51, 22:55, 22:57, 22:72. This chapter is addressed to Jews, Christians and sabians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hajj

    Surah 28 verses 62-64 state the Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom and every Muslim will see how Christians are punished-
    And [warn of] the Day He will call them and say, "Where are My 'partners' which you used to claim? Those upon whom the word will have come into effect will say, "Our Lord, these are the ones we led to error. We led them to error just as we were in error. We declare our disassociation [from them] to You. They did not used to worship us. And it will be said, "Invoke your 'partners' " and they will invoke them; but they will not respond to them, and they will see the punishment. If only they had followed guidance!

    Surah 61 verse 4 recommends Muslims to fight for the name of Allah-
    Indeed, Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a [single] structure joined firmly.

    Surah 25 verse 52 orders Muslims to fight against disbelievers-

    So, (O Prophet), do not follow the unbelievers but engage in a mighty striving against them with this Qur'an.

    Surah 48 verse 29 describes the people with Muhammad are forceful against disbelievers-
    Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

    The Allah orders the Muhammad to be enough harsh with disbelievers (Surah 66 verse 9)
    O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

    Surah 60 verse 1 guides Muslims to fight against disbelievers and the disbelievers should not be supposed as friends in this Jihad-

    O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as allies, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you have come out for jihad in My cause and seeking means to My approval, [take them not as friends]. You confide to them affection, but I am most knowing of what you have concealed and what you have declared. And whoever does it among you has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

    There are total 532 (8.5 percent of the Koran) verses in the Koran reflecting the disdain for non-violence and cruelty, yet people think these all verses are misconceptions. However, this 8.5 percent verses do not include adultery, child abuse, homophobia, slavery, misogynistic, polygamy etc. You can check the authenticity of my verses from Quran.com.

    Now I will grab the Bible. I will use English Standard Version or New International Version most of the times.

    1. The God commands for every Canaanite's ethnic cleansing. The Canaanites were the people who lived in Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan-
      and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy (Deuteronomy 7:2 NIV) This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I witnessed what the Amalekites did to the Israelites when they hindered them on their way up from Egypt. Now go and attack the Amalekites and devote to destruction all that belongs to them. Do not spare them, but put to death men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

    However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. (Deu 20:16)

    1. The Biblical God orders Christians not to do a treaty with other theists but when the opportunity comes for eating their sacrifice, Christians are allowed to eat them-

    Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. (Exodus 34:15 NIV).
    The Biblical God himself wrote this verse of second commandment-
    The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. (Exodus 34:1)

    1. The Christians were instructed to kill disbelievers when someone else says them, he is going to worship other Gods-

    If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. (Deu 13:6-10)

    The Bible has total 1321 (4.25% of the total) verses for belligerence and many of them are addressed to disbelievers and nonbelievers. You can check all Biblical verse from https://www.biblegateway.com.

    P.S. This was an off-topic discussion because the users had to argue about Jesus’ existence and non-existence. None of them is arguing with me so I decided to reply to an off-topic discussion. Otherwise I could love to reply you very early.

    PPS. I do not care about the downvotes on this post. Many Christians and Muslims may frown upon it. I debate and write for the truth, not for the upvotes/downvotes.






By using TalkWithStranger, you are accepting our privacy and usage terms . You must be 18+ or 13+ with parental permission to use our online chatting site.