Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I

[Tag]

To prove God is exist just like trying to prove the Superman exist which is impossible. However, people have their own theory and point of perspective on God based on their reasons but sometimes, some religious people take it the extreme to prove their God's existence is real which actually isn't necessary to do considering God's omnipotence based on their reason.

[Sugarpockets]

I just know He's there regardless of any thoughts or opinions.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Tag said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

To prove God is exist just like trying to prove the Superman exist which is impossible. However, people have their own theory and point of perspective on God based on their reasons but sometimes, some religious people take it the extreme to prove their God's existence is real which actually isn't necessary to do considering God's omnipotence based on their reason.

Yeah, it's more of a philosophical endeavour, and also impossible, because since everything God does must – per definition – be supernatural, you cannot possibly prove His existence.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Sugarpockets said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

I just know He's there regardless of any thoughts or opinions.

Yeah sometimes one just knows things...

[pe7erpark3r]

@Exorcised-Girl said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

Wow, sorry, this is getting too lengthy... I think we have said anything we could say about God and His Greatness, I could not add anything meaningful at this point...

Jesus approved of destroying enemies. Lk.19:27.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Mt.5:44.

You need to at least read things in context. The first one is taken from a parable in which a king, who's subordinates hate him, kills them later. Jesus often talks in his parables about how humans act. Nowhere does he approve of the king's actions. He just states them...

The second one is a direct demand of Jesus to love your enemies. Thus this is no contradiction at all.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.

The bible is not a direct dictation of God (clearly). So it requires an interepretation. Also it requires people to read properly.

For example Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." does not actually say that every sin is forgiven, only that every sin (that is forgiven) is forgiven through him (Jesus).

In Col 2:13 St. Paul says that all the sins of the believers are forgiven. Who says that any of them ever blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."... This also does not state that all sins can be forgiven, only that if your sins are forgiven, you will be purified from all unrighteousness.

There is no contradiction here... Man...

And here I thought you had found actual contradictions. Please next time put the real contradictions first...

New testament is clear about witches but old is not. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exod 22:18)

I agree that the OT is rather crude. But remember that Jesus states that Moses gave the jewish people the law about letting go of your wife. Which in turn means, that the law of Mose, is not exactly the law of God...

Salvation comes by faith and not works. Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6; Gal.2:16; Rom.3:28.
Salvation comes by faith and works. Jms.2:14,17,20.

Lets take one more example. The first one is read truly. The second reads Jms 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"

It simply states that a faith without deeds is no faith. This is also no contradiction...

The righteous have eternal life. Mt.25:46.
The righteous are barely saved. 1 Pet.4:18.
There are no righteous. Rom.3:10.

Romans also states that God makes us righteous. Context... you need to read things in context...

Believe and be baptized to be saved. Mk.16:16.
Be baptized by water and the spirit to be saved. Jn.3:5.
Endure to the end to be saved. Mt.24:13.
Call on the name of the "Lord" to be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:31.
Believe, then all your household will be saved. Acts 16:31.
Hope and you will be saved. Rom.8:24.
Believe in the resurrection to be saved. Rom.10:9.
By grace you are saved. Eph.2:5
By grace and faith you are saved. Eph.2:8.
Have the love of truth to be saved. 2 Thes.2:10.
Mercy saves. Titus 3:5.

Do you always state a whole encyclopedia when you say something? I mean come on... Yes Faith saves. Who has faith lets himself be baptized. Believe in Jesus is faith... Those are no real contradictions man. This is quibbling.

Backsliders are condemned. 2 Pet.2:20.

2 Pet.2:20 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

They are not condemned. Its just worse than before...

You didn't write this list did you? Whoever wrote this list has not properly read the bible...

Backsliders are saved regardless. Jn.10:27-29.

True.

Forgive seventy times seven. Mt.18:22.

This is symbolical, I hope you know that much. Also it is an instruction to the believer and says nothing about God's forgiveness...

Forgiveness is not possible for renewed sin. Heb.6:4-6.

Nope, Heb. 6 does not even talk about the forgiveness of sins. It says that people who fall back into non-believing if they have once believed cannot be converted again. This is just common sense he states there: if you were a believer once and then became an atheist, there is propably no way you'll become a believer again... Here St. Paul says nothing about God...

Come on. Read the bible. In your own language, so you actually understand it. Then you can try to argue about its contents...

[Zack Williamson]

@pe7erpark3r

Jesus approved of destroying enemies. Lk.19:27.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Mt.5:44.
You need to at least read things in context.

I had already read :)

The first one is taken from a parable in which a king, who's subordinates hate him, kills them later. Jesus often talks in his parables about how humans act. Nowhere does he approve of the king's actions. He just states them...

Jesus was talking about a parable- a story to teach a lesson to someone. A story which will be read by a bunch of people in future ! Apparently it is true that the king in the parable stands for God and it implies that god has the right to destroy those who don't want to follow his rules. He will do so ! Perhaps you did not notice his second entry.

The second one is a direct demand of Jesus to love your enemies. Thus this is no contradiction at all.

He is the dictator and commander respectively in first and second ones.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.
The bible is not a direct dictation of God (clearly).

No further interpretation required, only previous translations and contexts are required (if only). If you want to interpret, you can do that in your church. The bible is words of your own God.

So it requires an interepretation.

I do not want your interpretation. The reason is very simple- The original bible was taken from Egyptian, Persian and Greek mythologies and some Jewish scripture. People (including some unknown authors) added their trash in old testament. And then some other writers added some revelations and new stories into new testament. Nobody met with your supposed earthly jesus either it was paul (the main witness and messenger, not disciple) or peter or other epistles. Originally they did not give a damn about his life and teachings. Afterall there are so many versions of your Bible- NIV, NLV, ESV, BSB, BLB, NASB, NKJB, KJV, CSB, CEV, HSB, NET BIBLE, NHEB, NAS77, JB2000, KJ2000 BIBLE, AKJV, ASV, DRV, DBT, ERV, WBT etc. Indeed, people want to interpret or misinterpret their scriptures.

Also it requires people to read properly.

Yes in the context or out of the context is acceptable only.

For example Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." does not actually say that every sin is forgiven, only that every sin (that is forgiven) is forgiven through him (Jesus).

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. (No interpretation required) **every sin = every sin and nothing else **

In Col 2:13 St. Paul says that all the sins of the believers are forgiven. Who says that any of them ever blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?

I wrote three verses altogether for blasphemy. However you wrote the word blasphemy only in this verse.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, (col 2:13)

Read my bold words without interpretation or misinterpretion.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."... This also does not state that all sins can be forgiven, only that if your sins are forgiven, you will be purified from all unrighteousness.
There is no contradiction here... Man...

Because only you think so
(interpretation/misinterpretation is done by you). I do not want anyone's interpretation. Even though, an italian/vatican pop comes into this debate, I don't want his interpretation/misinterpretation

And here I thought you had found actual contradictions. Please next time put the real contradictions first...

I would like to write down more vicious side as F35 gambit. Those commandments are dangerous for humanity.

New testament is clear about witches but old is not. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exod 22:18)
I agree that the OT is rather crude. But remember that Jesus states that Moses gave the jewish people the law about letting go of your wife. Which in turn means, that the law of Mose, is not exactly the law of God...

And your God himself was a jew. What does it mean your god states that moses gave his own religious people the law for letting go of your wife ? the Mosaic Laws were said to have been handed down from a god to a man, in this case from Yahweh to Moses.

Salvation comes by faith and not works. Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6; Gal.2:16; Rom.3:28.
Salvation comes by faith and works. Jms.2:14,17,20.
Lets take one more example. The first one is read truly. The second reads Jms 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"
It simply states that a faith without deeds is no faith. This is also no contradiction...

We will see in below verses

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (eph 2:8) not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph2:9). And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6) know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified (gal 2:16). For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3:28)
Do you want to say there is no contradiction now ?

The righteous have eternal life. Mt.25:46.
The righteous are barely saved. 1 Pet.4:18.
There are no righteous. Rom.3:10.
Romans also states that God makes us righteous.

Yes, it states in 3:22-24

Context... you need to read things in context...

But 3:10 is not out of the context.

Believe and be baptized to be saved. Mk.16:16.
Be baptized by water and the spirit to be saved. Jn.3:5.
Endure to the end to be saved. Mt.24:13.
Call on the name of the "Lord" to be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:31.
Believe, then all your household will be saved. Acts 16:31.
Hope and you will be saved. Rom.8:24.
Believe in the resurrection to be saved. Rom.10:9.
By grace you are saved. Eph.2:5
By grace and faith you are saved. Eph.2:8.
Have the love of truth to be saved. 2 Thes.2:10.
Mercy saves. Titus 3:5.
Do you always state a whole encyclopedia when you say something?

I mean come on... Yes Faith saves. Who has faith lets himself be baptized. Believe in Jesus is faith... Those are no real contradictions man. This is quibbling.

Suppose person A has faith in jesus and he reads his preaching books daily. But he does not go in a church's congregation. According to a survey, most Christians consider him as a 'lost person'. Is he saved or not ? Is he still baptised in your opinion?

How about mercy ? Are mercy and faith same ? Lemme make my probabilities for you. Who is actually saved ?

1. One has faith but does not work
2. One does only work but does not have faith.
3. One does work and have faith.
4. One has only mercy of jesus, ps. No work and no faith.
5. One has mercy of jesus and faith but he does not work
6. One has mercy and does works but is not faithful.
7. One has only hope but is not faithful. Ps. No work.
8. One has hope and does work. Ps. No faith.
9. One is baptized by water and the spirit but does not work.
10. One is only baptized (not by water and spirit) and he does not work.
11. One has only love of truth but does not work. Ps. No faith
12. One does works and has love of truth.
13. One member of family has faith but other members have no faith, do not work, do not have mercy.
14. One has faith in only resurrection and nothing else. He does not work.
    I can make more than 30 probabilities but I leave for you to think.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16 NIV)

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5 NIV)

but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13 NIV)

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' (Acts 2:21)

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

Suppose my dad believes in the lord jesus but I do not. According to 16:31, I am saved but mk 16:16 says I am condemned. Now did you get this contradiction ?

The verses of faith were mentioned by me. Just because you were claiming “non-believers can be saved”. Usually non-believers like me do not have any faith for anyone (soul, god, reincarnation, divinity, heaven, hell, liberation etc).

Backsliders are condemned. 2 Pet.2:20.
2 Pet.2:20 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first."
They are not condemned. Its just worse than before...

Read pulpit's commentry for regarding 'who having escaped'. #One who has escaped from the polluted world#

You didn't write this list did you?

I have written it and it is not the list.

Whoever wrote this list has not properly read the bible...

We will investigate your claim.

Backsliders are saved regardless. Jn.10:27-29.
True.
Forgive seventy times seven. Mt.18:22.
This is symbolical, I hope you know that much. Also it is an instruction to the believer and says nothing about God's forgiveness...

Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (mt18:22).
Jesus said 77 times to forgive a bro who wrongs with you. I did not say about symbolic or non-symbolic. Read pulpit's commentry when he gives his authority to peter.

Forgiveness is not possible for renewed sin. Heb.6:4-6.
Nope, Heb. 6 does not even talk about the forgiveness of sins. It says that people who fall back into non-believing if they have once believed cannot be converted again. This is just common sense he states there: if you were a believer once and then became an atheist, there is propably no way you'll become a believer again... Here St. Paul says nothing about God...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (6:4)
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (6:5)
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (6:6)
Fall back or fall away ? The last line says about the son of God yet you state he said nothing about God. Ironically, you are the one who assume people can understand any book in their own native language.
FALL AWAY - meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary (https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/fall-away)
FALL BACK - meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary (https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/fall-back)
For the sins part, read Matthew's commentary on heb 6:1-8

Come on. Read the bible. In your own language, so you actually understand it.

I had read it thrice in English- it is an information, not an argument. Your NIV and KJV versions are damn easy to read. Even though, a 12 years old asian kid can read and grasp them. They have not used difficult vocabularies. I suck on some vocabularies but I am enough good on grammar part.

Then you can try to argue about its contents...

Appeal to authority. - conceiving someone's sucking english first and then try to show your authority over your opponent because you think you have revised many more times than your opponent has or you think he has never read the Bible.
If you proved these were not actually contradictions, I couldn't count it as appeal to authority. As I have seen, you are unable to show me that they are not really contradictions.
Caution - Do not get offended with below Genesis. If someone gets offended, I shall be apologised to him. This is what I call “demolition of faith” AKA F35 gambit.
Since Lev was referred in new testament It is not invalid to say OT (related to lev) is the part of NT.
GAY LOVE PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:22 (KJV)
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

KILL MALE HOMOSEXUALS - Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

GOD’S WRATH AND ATHEISTS - Romans 1:18-21
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

SLAVERY, EXECUTION, SEX - Numbers 31:17-18 (NIV)
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

SLAVERY, JESUS - Matthew 18:25 (KJV) [Jesus recommends families to be sold as slaves.]
"But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

SLAVERY, JESUS - Luke 12:42-48 (NASB)
[Jesus recommends killing and flogging slaves.]
And the Lord [Jesus] said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants [slaves], to give them their rations at the proper time? "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces , and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

SLAVERY, JESUS - Luke 17:7-8
"But which of you having a slave ploughing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, "Go and sit down to meat."? And will not rather say unto him, "Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, til I have eaten, and drunken, and afterwards thou shalt eat and drink."?

SLAVERY, JESUS - Luke 16:13 (NRSV)
"No slave can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth

CHILD ABUSE - Proverbs 13:24 - KING SOLOMON (NAB)
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him.

CHILD ABUSE - Proverbs 19:18-19 - KING SOLOMON (NAB)
"Chastise your son, for in this there is hope, but do not desire his death. The man of violent temper pays the penalty; even if you rescue him, you will have to do it again."

CHILD ABUSE - Proverbs 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.

CHILD ABUSE - Proverbs 22:15 - KING SOLOMON
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

CHILD ABUSE - Proverbs 23:13-14 - KING SOLOMON (NIV)
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

CHILD ABUSE - Exodus 20:5 [part of one of the three sets of ** 10 commandments.]
"... for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."

CHILD ABUSE - Deuteronomy 5:9 [part of one of the three sets of 10 commandments]
"for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Here comes the 3rd set of commandments -
I'll say nothing about below gens (no commentry), just read once.
Luke 14:26
Jesus speaks, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.”

Luke 14:33
Jesus speaks, “Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.”

Matthew 6:19
Jesus speaks, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.”

Matthew 10:34 ,
Jesus speaks, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Here comes the 2nd set of commandments
Exodus 34:14-26

1. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
2. 15 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
   16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
3. 17 Do not make cast idols.
4. 18 Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
5. 19 The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
   20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
6. 21 Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season the harvest you must rest.
7. 22 Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
   23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.
   24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
8. 25 Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the passover Feast remain until morning.
9. 26 Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.
    27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
    28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets.

In the last, read 27th point which states god made a covenant with Moses

NOTE- Did you remember you were claiming about your supposed objective truth (based on argument from ignorance) in various posts (recently in dusherra post) ? I always wanted to join that debate. At the very first place, when scruffy said, "we both are agree that christ existed as a person historically". I say there was no such guy like christ. Do you want to debate on this one too ? If yes, You can choose debate place here, there (scruffy's and your debate thread) or a new thread.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Vex-Man said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

@pe7erpark3r

Come on. Read the bible. In your own language, so you actually understand it.

I had read it thrice in English- it is an information, not an argument. Your NIV and KJV versions are damn easy to read. Even though, a 12 years old asian kid can read and grasp them. They have not used difficult vocabularies. I suck on some vocabularies but I am enough good on grammar part.

Then you can try to argue about its contents...

Appeal to authority. - conceiving someone's sucking english first and then try to show your authority over your opponent because you think you have revised many more times than your opponent has or you think he has never read the Bible.

I did not appeal to authority, even though I apologize for saying it in this provocative way. I am not saying I've read the bible more often than you. I am saying you are not reading lots of verses correctly. And I have shown how you have missread them, and everybody who reads what I've written will agree.

If you do not believe me go to the university to an english professor:

Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

By the rules of english grammar this phrase does in fact only mean (with certainty) that all sins (that are forgiven) are forgiven through him and not necessarily that "all sins are forgiven". Get an expert's opinion please if you do not believe me...

Because only you think so
(interpretation/misinterpretation is done by you). I do not want anyone's interpretation. Even though, an italian/vatican pop comes into this debate, I don't want his interpretation/misinterpretation

I have not given you any interpretation. You haven't asked me (before) about any of the contradictions that require an interpretation (I concede there are contradictions that require an interpretation). I've simply told you what is actually written there in plain english and what you have missread.

SLAVERY, JESUS - Luke 12:42-48 (NASB)
[Jesus recommends killing and flogging slaves.]
And the Lord [Jesus] said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants [slaves], to give them their rations at the proper time? "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces , and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

And if you state it a hundred times, it won't be true. Jesus does not approve of killing slves (or of slavery). You read that in. Jesus tells a parabol. A parabol is not a demand for action in and of itself. A parabol requires an interpretation to convert it into a demand for action. And since you do not allow anybody's interpretation (wether its the pope or not), you are not allowed to interpret the parabol either and translate it into a demand for action!

Jesus was talking about a parable- a story to teach a lesson to someone. A story which will be read by a bunch of people in future ! Apparently it is true that the king in the parable stands for God and it implies that god has the right to destroy those who don't want to follow his rules. He will do so ! Perhaps you did not notice his second entry.

But aparently you do interpret it, so for the sake of argument I will go with your interpretation:

Jesus tells us clearly to love our enemies. If he also tells us, that God destroys his enemies, that does not qualify as a contradiction. Are we the same as God?

However there is a contradiction hidden here, that would actually require an interpretation: How can God be love, and destroy His enemies at the same time? But since you do not want an interpretation, you don't get one.

Everyone who is interested can ask me anytime. The interpretation does resolve the contradiction btw. If understood right, the bible makes sense.

NOTE- Did you remember you were claiming about your supposed objective truth (based on argument from ignorance) in various posts (recently in dusherra post) ? I always wanted to join that debate. At the very first place, when scruffy said, "we both are agree that christ existed as a person historically". I say there was no such guy like christ. Do you want to debate on this one too ? If yes, You can choose debate place here, there (scruffy's and your debate thread) or a new thread.

I'm not happy with the way you "debate", because in contrast to scruffy (who was actually a great debator), you do not limit yourself: your posts are immensely long and touch hundreds of arguments at the same time. I don't think a discussion like this is meaningful. Also it is not fun to debate with someone who argues about words so much instead of wanting to get behind things. And you never concede, even if you are proven wrong. Our discussion has never been a debate.

So yeah, maybe in future we can have a debate about this – provided you are willing to follow the rules of a good debate. I will not continue this discussion now...

[pe7erpark3r]

@AllAboutGay said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

@pe7erpark3r In a nightclub– that is in a nightclub where still anybody believed that there was a Gay or were gays – people already wanted to know. The idea of proving Gay seemed to be especially popular at the beginning of the last millenium. The first one to come up with such a "proof" was the monk Homo of LGBT. This is a short summary of his argument:

Everybody can agree on the following definition: Gay is that above which you can think nothing greater
Now think Gay like this, but think that he does not exist
Woops, you can think of something higher can't you? Because a Gay who does exist, is definitely greater than one who doesn't
Ergo: Our mind is not capable of thinking Gay without also thinking that he exists
Conclusion: Gays exist

:joy:

well I for one don't agree with the definition, that there is nothing greater than gay :yum:. I think sex might be greater than gay :joy:. But I agree with you that gays exist, however unproven they may be :joy:

[Zack Williamson]

@pe7erpark3r

I did not appeal to authority

It is alright if you did not try to do. NVM

I am saying you are not reading lots of verses correctly. And I have shown how you have misread them, and everybody who reads what I've written will agree.

I read those verses together with commentaries. The commentary elaborates you how the writer has translated Greek to English. It is the fundamental thing of every Biblical genesis. You have not shown me that I am wrong.

If you do not believe me go to the university to an English professor:

A professor is a ramifying learner. Everyone is a learner. You always say me to go to an expert. The dictionaries add new words every year and the professor's old knowledge will never be useful for new generations. You always try to do appeal to authority, this time you have really done. 'I should believe on him because he is an expert in a particular subject'. Instead of believing in him, I would go with dictionaries.

Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

By the rules of English grammar this phrase does in fact only mean (with certainty) that all sins (that are forgiven) are forgiven through him and not necessarily that "all sins are forgiven". Get an expert's opinion please if you do not believe me...

I wrote three genesis altogether for 'all sins are forgivable' but you chose only one. 'Every' is refer to all the individual members of a set without exception. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/every. The Collins dictionary will clear your all doubts. I am saying 'all sins are definitely forgivable' with acknowledge to my all 3 genesis and I am not saying this 'only genesis' says you with certainty/non-certainty that all sins are forgivable. Let me write those genesis again.
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, (col 2:13)- Read the last sentence
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

I have not given you any interpretation. You haven't asked me (before) about any of the contradictions that require an interpretation (I concede there are contradictions that require an interpretation). I've simply told you what is actually written there in plain English and what you have misread.

Your words were really saying something else. I quote your words now, "all sins (that are forgiven) are forgiven". There was no bracket in any type of translation, you have interpreted.

But apparently you do interpret it,

I read it with commentary now. I am saying with Matthew's commentary that the avowed enemies of Mr.Christ and false professors will be punished.

Are we the same as God?

No, according to the Bible we are certainly not. But he is commanding all followers especially Christians (including you) to love their enemies in one genesis and he is commanding to his Christian ministers (not you) to kill non-talented persons, his enemies in other genesis. He should be prudent at the first place because his ministers and those who accepted his gifts are included in his followers. The second point of mine is, the one genesis is told for all Christians and second one is told for those christian ministers. The christian ministers are still common in both and here I found a real contradiction.

Everyone who is interested can ask me anytime. The interpretation does resolve the contradiction btw. If understood right, the bible makes sense.

The interpretation of a roman catholic christian can supposedly resolve it but the interpretation of a protestant christian and other scholars will make it more complex. I will become mad if I read all of them at same time. So, I look for Greek-English translations rather than English-English interpretations. The interpretation thing is problem with every religion. Those commentators have explained how they have translated Greek to English.

I'm not happy with the way you "debate",

Nor I am.

you do not limit yourself: your posts are immensely long and touch hundreds of arguments at the same time.

If my arguments come for a particular discussing topic, I can never go beyond it. I gave you 20 commandments for homework and they were contradicting your other 10 commandments. People like me try to see how much his opponent knows about his own books.

I don't think a discussion like this is meaningful. Also it is not fun to debate with someone who argues about words so much instead of wanting to get behind things.

An architect always constructs fundamentals of a building before reaching on the third floor. Whenever I pick those words, I ask you that you are sure or not about your own words. Anyone can deduce a wrong conclusion with vague words.

And you never concede, even if you are proven wrong. Our discussion has never been a debate

You could not prove 'God's existence with ontological/cosmological arguments or atheism has killed more people than theism' and it was always subject of debate. You have been really defeated in both. The rest thing is 'contradiction of the Bible' and you leave this discussion here. So you did not prove me that I was wrong.

So yeah, maybe in future we can have a debate about this – provided you are willing to follow the rules of a good debate. I will not continue this discussion now...

You don't follow those rules at the very first place. You are the one who come up with general fallacies.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Vex-Man said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

@pe7erpark3r
A professor is a ramifying learner. Everyone is a learner. You always say me to go to an expert. The dictionaries add new words every year and the professor's old knowledge will never be useful for new generations. You always try to do appeal to authority, this time you have really done. 'I should believe on him because he is an expert in a particular subject'. Instead of believing in him, I would go with dictionaries.

But you are certainly right, that we should not be talking about any english translation, for even though I'm sure I'm right about this english translation, I might be wrong about the greek original. 0uite frankly you are at the wrong door if you really want to debate what the sentences mean in their original writing. I'm not an expert on greek or hebrew grammar. If you want to study these things deeper I can recommend to you biblehub.com...

No, according to the Bible we are certainly not. But he is commanding all followers especially Christians (including you) to love their enemies in one genesis and he is commanding to his Christian ministers (not you) to kill non-talented persons, his enemies in other genesis. He should be prudent at the first place because his ministers and those who accepted his gifts are included in his followers. The second point of mine is, the one genesis is told for all Christians and second one is told for those christian ministers. The christian ministers are still common in both and here I found a real contradiction.

You sir are funny :joy:. You tell me you accept no interpretation, and certainly not the pope's. Then you go ahead and give me one interpretation (God punishes his enemies), and when this interpretation yields no contradiction, you go ahead and give me the next interpretation (ministers are allowed to punish their enemies). I do agree with you, your interpretation is contradictory.

The interpretation of a roman catholic christian can supposedly resolve it but the interpretation of a protestant christian and other scholars will make it more complex. I will become mad if I read all of them at same time. So, I look for Greek-English translations rather than English-English interpretations. The interpretation thing is problem with every religion. Those commentators have explained how they have translated Greek to English.

You are certainly right. Dividing ourselves and leaving the truth, was the worst thing christianity could possibly do. How could anyone take us seriously if we are divided among ourselves? I humbly apologize in the name of the catholic church, for I personally believe, that the catholic church is at fault for both great divisions. Not because it did not have the truth, but because it was proud and unloving, and also greedy, and thus through the sins of the catholic church you are now hindered to find the truth...

...

About the discussion on the bible: I have been argueing with you about the dead letter, instead of talking of the spirit.

You know the spirit does not only speak to the elect of the church. The Holy Spirit speaks to anyone, and invites them all into the kingdom of God. People who have never sought God, will come to praise and adore Him for they recognize His voice. The kingdom will be taken from those who only argue without spirit, who divide themselves under the name of christ, and will be given to a humble people. And God will bend His churches and make them one again. First east and west, then also those who hurt Him by splitting themselves off under the name of Luther. For how should Jesus prayer become true, that "the world recognizes that they are sent from Me" if to the world we do not display unity among ourselves? Indeed Jesus' Sacred Heart is lacerating today because of so many sins. He will put an end to atheism soon. Because this time Abel will live. And those who recognize the true shephards call will come and rebuild His sanctuary, ecclesia will be rebuilt.

The sheep who are from His flock will in truth recognize His voice. Anybody is invited to share God's table and eat from the Heavenly Manna, that is sent down to us in a time so obscure. The lowly and humble will recognize His voice. Only those who think they see, the proud and rich, cannot receive the Kingdom of God. Materialism and Pride are the things that keep the spirit from entering into you and you from recognizing God's voice. Repent and recognize what you are being offered: God is offering His Heart to us all, to every sinner, and will render you and me into a holy people. That is why instead of endless rational debate, we should be giving His celestial manna without reserve, give to the hungry and the poor what has been promised 2000 years ago: the second pentecoste, the second coming of the Holy Spirit. The words of God are not mere words, they are active and alive.

And so we pray:

Father all Merciful,
let those who hear and hear again
yet never understand,
hear Your Voice this time
and understand that it is You, the Holy of Holies;
open the eyes of those who see and see,
yet never perceive,
to see with their eyes this time
Your Holy Face and Your Glory,
place Your Finger on their heart
so that their heart may open
and understand Your Faithfulness,
I pray and ask you all these things, Righteous Father,
so that all the nations be converted and be healed
through the Wounds of Your Beloved Son, Jesus Christ;
amen;

[Zack Williamson]

@pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

@Vex-Man said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

@pe7erpark3r
A professor is a ramifying learner. Everyone is a learner. You always say me to go to an expert. The dictionaries add new words every year and the professor's old knowledge will never be useful for new generations. You always try to do appeal to authority, this time you have really done. 'I should believe on him because he is an expert in a particular subject'. Instead of believing in him, I would go with dictionaries.

But you are certainly right, that we should not be talking about any english translation, for even though I'm sure I'm right about this english translation, I might be wrong about the Greek original.

Many (not all) genesis were still making sound for contradictions as if I ignore the Greek-english translations. Why are you so sure about this english translation ?
Cambridge dictionary
Merriam-Webster dictionary
[The free dictionary] (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/every)
Each dictionary is saying 'there is no exception in a set'. I do not want to judge your interpretation, you do not take literal meaning of those genesis.

Quite frankly you are at the wrong door if you really want to debate what the sentences mean in their original writing. I'm not an expert on greek or Hebrew grammar. If you want to study these things deeper I can recommend to you [Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages (http://biblehub.com)](Acts 13 Interlinear Bible (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/13.htm))...

Since you do not know about Greek so I should not talk about contradictory gens with reference to Greek-English translations anymore. I had already visited http://biblehub.com and it is a great website.

No, according to the Bible we are certainly not. But he is commanding all followers especially Christians (including you) to love their enemies in one genesis and he is commanding to his Christian ministers (not you) to kill non-talented persons, his enemies in other genesis. He should be prudent at the first place because his ministers and those who accepted his gifts are included in his followers. The second point of mine is, the one genesis is told for all Christians and second one is told for those christian ministers. The christian ministers are still common in both and here I found a real contradiction.

You sir are funny :joy:. You tell me you accept no interpretation, and certainly not the pope's. Then you go ahead and give me one interpretation (God punishes his enemies), and when this interpretation yields no contradiction, you go ahead and give me the next interpretation (ministers are allowed to punish their enemies). I do agree with you, your interpretation is contradictory.

Anyways, I have violated my own rule 'no interpretation' so forget this genesis.
I can give you another genesis in which I am 100 percent sure that Jesus is saying to kill everything of the enemies in new testament
1 Samuel 15:2-3
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkey.

The interpretation of a roman catholic christian can supposedly resolve it but the interpretation of a protestant christian and other scholars will make it more complex. I will become mad if I read all of them at same time. So, I look for Greek-English translations rather than English-English interpretations. The interpretation thing is problem with every religion. Those commentators have explained how they have translated Greek to English.

You are certainly right. Dividing ourselves and leaving the truth, was the worst thing Christianity could possibly do. How could anyone take us seriously if we are divided among ourselves? I humbly apologize in the name of the catholic church, for I personally believe, that the catholic church is at fault for both great divisions. Not because it did not have the truth, but because it was proud and unloving, and also greedy, and thus through the sins of the catholic church you are now hindered to find the truth...

...

We take you seriously man but I think I should listen to an orthodox, a protestant, an eastern and a Mormon christian too. It will be a discrimination to not listen to them and to their interpretations. And it will become subjective so I am an apatheist into a subjective debate.
And you do not need to apologize for this dividation.
Your argument was “it is safe to assume that atheism has done more evil than theism”. My counter-argument was “theism has killed people more times than atheism” and “Theism has killed for the name of their God and religion”. Contradictions were just a part of this counter-argument. They have taken literal meaning of every verse and then they killed for the name of it.
Islam killed 270 million people-https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
Christianity killed 106.734 million people- Death toll of Christianity https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Death_toll_of_Christianity
Capitalism has killed 120 million people - https://eand.co/if-communism-killed-millions-how-many-did-capitalism-kill-2b24ab1c0df7?gi=72818ab23fff
Communism has killed 100 million people and 20 to 30 million were killed by christian communists so I would like to take an average of 25 million. Atheism communism killed 100–25= 75 million people.
Now let me do a bit math- Theism killed 270+ 120+ 106= 496 million ( I have not included so many religions).
Theism has killed 6.61 times more than atheism (496/75= 6.61).
Atheism killed : Theism killed = 1:6.61
Now I would count who killed for the name of whom-
Communism killed for the name of atheism = 0
Christianity and Islam killed 270+120= 390 million people for the name of their religion/God. Let me give you genesis for those commands by God and these verses were responsible for it-
Islam- verses no- 9:13, 9:14, 9:29, 9:88, 9:111, 9:123, 2:39, 2:190, 2:191, 2:192, 2;193, 2:216, 2:244, 2:257, 48:13, 48:28, 48:29, 4:14, 4:74, 4:89. You can find those verses on Quran.com .
Christianity- last 2 sets of 10–10 commandments, Exodus 32:27, 1 Samuel 6:19, 1 Samuel 15:2,3,7,8; Numbers 15:36, Hosea 13:16, Psalm 137:9, Gen 22:2, Ex 22:29, Lev 27:28-29, Num 31:26-29, Jg 11:29-39, 2 sam 21:1,9,14, 1kg 13:2, 2kg 23:20, 2Chr 34:5.

About the discussion on the bible: I have been arguing with you about the dead letter, instead of talking of the spirit.

You know the spirit does not only speak to the elect of the church. The Holy Spirit speaks to anyone, and invites them all into the kingdom of God. People who have never sought God, will come to praise and adore Him for they recognize His voice. The kingdom will be taken from those who only argue without spirit, who divide themselves under the name of christ, and will be given to a humble people. And God will bend His churches and make them one again. First east and west, then also those who hurt Him by splitting themselves off under the name of Luther. For how should Jesus prayer become true, that "the world recognizes that they are sent from Me" if to the world we do not display unity among ourselves? Indeed Jesus' Sacred Heart is lacerating today because of so many sins. He will put an end to atheism soon. Because this time Abel will live. And those who recognize the true shephards call will come and rebuild His sanctuary, ecclesia will be rebuilt.

The sheep who are from His flock will in truth recognize His voice. Anybody is invited to share God's table and eat from the Heavenly Manna, that is sent down to us in a time so obscure. The lowly and humble will recognize His voice. Only those who think they see, the proud and rich, cannot receive the Kingdom of God. Materialism and Pride are the things that keep the spirit from entering into you and you from recognizing God's voice. Repent and recognize what you are being offered: God is offering His Heart to us all, to every sinner, and will render you and me into a holy people. That is why instead of endless rational debate, we should be giving His celestial manna without reserve, give to the hungry and the poor what has been promised 2000 years ago: the second pentecoste, the second coming of the Holy Spirit. The words of God are not mere words, they are active and alive.

And so we pray:

Father all Merciful,
let those who hear and hear again
yet never understand,
hear Your Voice this time
and understand that it is You, the Holy of Holies;
open the eyes of those who see and see,
yet never perceive,
to see with their eyes this time
Your Holy Face and Your Glory,
place Your Finger on their heart
so that their heart may open
and understand Your Faithfulness,
I pray and ask you all these things, Righteous Father,
so that all the nations be converted and be healed
through the Wounds of Your Beloved Son, Jesus Christ;
amen;

My points for this letter is-

1. "Unless someone is not logically or historically proved, it is unreasonable to pray to him."
2. This 'someone' includes God and soul/(s).
3. I'm a peremptory irreligious person so believing/worshiping/praying in/to anything will really make me religious.
4. Someone believes in something without any type of 'empirical verifiable evidence' or without 'logically proved argument', definitely follows a religion i.e. Buddhism, Shintoism, communism, Jainism, capitalism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Bahaism, Judaism. The definition of religion is "a particular system of faith and worship." I am not ‘that someone’.
5. Indeed, atheism and other religions are growing, as per as statistics states. Atheists have outnumbered Hindus.
6. I do not even consider the Bible as the main part of debate because there is no reason to debate on a book of which first edition does not exist anymore. There are so many errors, omissions, changes and contradictions which have been already done. Therefore, it was never endless debate about the Bible.
7. Osiris/Serapis, Inanna/Ishtar, Horus, Perseus, Bacchus/Dionysus, Attis, Isis, Hermes, Romulus, Adonis, Hercules/Heracles, Zalmoxis, Tammuz, Asclepius, Krishna, and Prometheus—- All of them were resurrected, all of them had a virgin mother and divine father, all of them were tried to kill as infants by tyrants. There is no-extra Biblical evidence of Jesus/christ has been found yet. When the person did not exist, it is absurd to say that he had even a soul.
8. I am absolute certain that a theistic God does not exist. A theistic God is matterless, energyless, timeless, spaceless, eternal, one, united, perfect, omnipotent, incomparable, omniscience, ultimate creator etc. Non-theistic God is based on Ad hoc arguments such as ‘floating dragon of carl sagan’ or ‘teapot of Russell’. I do not have any counter-argument for that type of God. An ad hoc argument is impossible to counter.
   In the end, I would post my best Quote and it is the tenable trilemma of Epicurus. None of the theologian, pope, priest, pundit, kaazi can solve it. You too were unable to solve it.
   
   I do not think why this debate should be relentlessly pursuing anymore.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Incredible-Hulk said in Fact check with Pet: Can you prove God's existence? Part I:

I do not think why this debate should be relentlessly pursuing anymore.

No, not this discussion, for I think there is a rather numerous set of topics, many many topics, in this discussion worth debating. How about we start with a rather inoccuous one... I'll make a new topic. You're invited if you want.