My new world view

[pe7erpark3r]

@Indrid-Cold said in My new world view:

For a start, PP, massive kudos as ever for bringing an ambitious topic like this to the table.

Thanks Miseur!

I think there's something in this. Although I'd suggest you could equally apply such an existential hierarchy to the world by having a group of minds in the place of God -- maybe even the gestalt of the collective unconscious applied to the quantum consensus (Philip K Dick wrote a decent novel about such an idea - I think it was 'Ubik').

Well... you'd need some basis in which this group of minds can work. You need laws governing their interaction. You know? You need something above the group, that makes the group possible. You need quantum fields, or whatever. You need a nature for a group to work together, the interaction or possiblity of interaction must have some kind of rules or foundation. Aaaaaand.... we've arrived at God again.

But, I mean, your conception ...I don't really see how anyone would think this is a good thing. What is God's motivation or personality like that He expends so much time imagining the consciousnesses of disparate people?

Well, that is not unique to my conception, if you don't mind that objection. You can ask the very same question about creation itself.

And besides, he doesn't spend any time at all :yum:... Jokes aside we are talking about an infinite, unlimited being: I don't think that "so much" is the right way of putting things. I mean we are talking about the universe, which appears to be a finite thing. So, I think you might just as well ask, why the heck does he spend so little time, and so little energy on creation. I mean the universe is so incredibly finite, plain, small, insignificant, boring (even Salvador...)... in relation to Him.

it just shows a God with a very sophisticated form of schizophrenia, or one that doesn't respect idiosyncrasy or serendipity as concepts.

I don't quite understand how the existence of boring/rubbish/C--tish people makes for a disrespect in idiosyncrasy or serendipity. I'm not even sure I got a grasp on what those concepts mean to you. I would very much appreciate an explanation of what you mean by this.

For every really fascinating person like Salvador Dali or Che Guevara, there's countless millions of people who are boring, rubbish, or C's. And that's not necessarily me being unkind to boring, rubbish, or C--tish people:

As I said before, that argument can be brought up against creation just as much as against a creation that is in God's mind. So it does not – at least to my understanding – speak against this world view specifically, but against the existence of God, or rather against the existence of the God you imagine. A very wise old priest I knew once said: "When somebody tells me, that they don't believe in a God who is like this, then I always tell them, that I don't either." So, I'll go ahead and answer your enquiry to the existence of this God, with: nope, this God who cares so much about the boring-/rubbish-/C--tishness of people, does not exist.

The God I believe exists, values something other than "the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man." (or the beauty of one's mind). Instead He values in His little creations that which is important to Him: love, integrity, generosity, the will to sacrifice yourself, etc. And, knowing how worthless, evil and stupid we are (in relation to Him), He does what He loves most: He loves us to folly. I mean, he created us all to love us. That's the whole point of our existence. And what better to love than somebody as incapable of doing good than us? What needs more love than things like us?

He created us so He could give His own life, to save us from ourselves. It really is a beautiful story – at least in my head it looks like that :shrug:

Let me add of course, that the reason we are as bad as we are, is our own free will combined with quite the set of horrible choices in its usage :joy:. Another really important aspect of the whole image, without which God would really be an egoistic maniac.

[Indrid Cold]

@pe7erpark3r Thanx for the reply fella. I mean, I should stress that I agree 100% with the vibe of your thinking.

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

He created us so He could give His own life, to save us from ourselves. It really is a beautiful story – at least in my head it looks like that

...it's just that the execution of the whole affair is just a total head-scratcher to me. Pray allow me to elaborate on my grievances. The best-case-scenario, that I can see, is a kind of cosmic inside job. This supposedly loving relationship between God and Man (and it's so cool that you see it like that), in my mind, runs like this: God is a corrupt exec in a county council. He's handing out contracts for some kind of public service deal, and He really wants to give it to his best mate, Mankind. But to avoid the accusation of nepotism or favouritism, He deliberately fakes some examples of other people's work, but makes them subtly, subtly rubbish, so that when the spending watchdog reviews the audit, nothing will look amiss. And just to spell out the analogy: the rubbishy fake contract proposals are any section of Mankind which Mankind Himself would agree is blatantly rubbish, if only he stopped to think about it.

So God awards the lucrative public service gig to Mankind, He hands it right over and gives Mankind a kind of smirking, knowing wink. And later, maybe boozing it up down Stringfellows, Mankind says to God, "Oh, just out of interest, let's have a look at some of those fake proposals you drew up". And God just hands him reams, and reams, and, reams, and reams. Like, the densest documents that've ever been written. And Mankind is like, "WTF, G? Why did you go into so much detail?"

You see what I'm saying? Consciousness is a hell of a thing: I'm no fan of the human race, but just as a matter of good grace and solidarity, it's necessary for me to believe that everyone is conscious, even the most rubbish people you can imagine. One way or another, God is being unfair to a lot of people. Either He's lying to us that rubbish people are conscious and deserve our sense of human solidarity, or He's dishonouring the very idea of consciousness by giving people apparently very sophisticated minds, but they always, ALWAYS fall completely short of seeing that. y'know, capitalism is hell, laziness is evil, Gogglebox deserves to exist, etc.

I mean, you were right to mention free will, but I don't think it applies here. I'm talking about being-and-nothingness absolutes, and raw concepts. Existential self-determination doesn't come into it. Eh?

[Blanket]

@pe7erpark3r
So we are all in existence purely as a figment of “God”’s imagination? Puppets of formation whose only purpose is to act out “God”’s curious imagination.. “I wonder how much it would hurt to feel hated because I was born here not there..?” or “I wonder how much fear and suffering a child can endure?”
We’re here because one being created us and plays with us for.. entertainment. Quite callous. Ironically it fits, and both creator and playing pieces can continue to deny responsibility.

[Imduck]

@pe7erpark3r um..thats some way of putting things..yes

[pe7erpark3r]

@Indrid-Cold said in My new world view:

@pe7erpark3r Thanx for the reply fella. I mean, I should stress that I agree 100% with the vibe of your thinking.

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

He created us so He could give His own life, to save us from ourselves. It really is a beautiful story – at least in my head it looks like that

...it's just that the execution of the whole affair is just a total head-scratcher to me. Pray allow me to elaborate on my grievances. The best-case-scenario, that I can see, is a kind of cosmic inside job. This supposedly loving relationship between God and Man (and it's so cool that you see it like that), in my mind, runs like this: God is a corrupt exec in a county council. He's handing out contracts for some kind of public service deal, and He really wants to give it to his best mate, Mankind. But to avoid the accusation of nepotism or favouritism, He deliberately fakes some examples of other people's work, but makes them subtly, subtly rubbish, so that when the spending watchdog reviews the audit, nothing will look amiss. And just to spell out the analogy: the rubbishy fake contract proposals are any section of Mankind which Mankind Himself would agree is blatantly rubbish, if only he stopped to think about it.

So God awards the lucrative public service gig to Mankind, He hands it right over and gives Mankind a kind of smirking, knowing wink. And later, maybe boozing it up down Stringfellows, Mankind says to God, "Oh, just out of interest, let's have a look at some of those fake proposals you drew up". And God just hands him reams, and reams, and, reams, and reams. Like, the densest documents that've ever been written. And Mankind is like, "WTF, G? Why did you go into so much detail?"

You see what I'm saying? Consciousness is a hell of a thing: I'm no fan of the human race, but just as a matter of good grace and solidarity, it's necessary for me to believe that everyone is conscious, even the most rubbish people you can imagine. One way or another, God is being unfair to a lot of people. Either He's lying to us that rubbish people are conscious and deserve our sense of human solidarity, or He's dishonouring the very idea of consciousness by giving people apparently very sophisticated minds, but they always, ALWAYS fall completely short of seeing that. y'know, capitalism is hell, laziness is evil, Gogglebox deserves to exist, etc.

I mean, you were right to mention free will, but I don't think it applies here. I'm talking about being-and-nothingness absolutes, and raw concepts. Existential self-determination doesn't come into it. Eh?

Maybe I should elaborate a bit... I've drawn up my metaphor for God and His relation to his creation... I haven't drawn my image of mankind.

You know that consciousness is not the same as intelligence at all right? Consciousness is simply your ability to perceive, to perceive what is happening around you visually and with your senses, and to perceive your emotions, and to perceive your thoughts. It is not necessary to think consciousness as that which "acts", consciousness might as well be something very passive, e.g. your thoughts happening to you, necessarily, logically or illogically/irrationally. Consciousness does not automatically make you the actor, the self-realizing entity. But it does make you an entity, somebody able to feel, somebody able to be someone else's counterpart.

So to be quite clear, I do not think that intelligence is what makes you you. Robots can be intelligent, but they cannot be conscious – at this point in time, and in all likelyhood never – it is not the same thing.

So, to be quite fair, I actually don't really think, that we do have this kind of freedom, the freedom of self-realization. I mean just look at yourself, your biological sex, you hair color, your accent, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you see the world... you have not created that, you have not done that. You are not a completely free entity realizing itself to whatever it wants. And when you make decisions, you are also not realizing anything new actually, you tend to do what you always do, and you tend to do what you like. If you like green, you'll wear green sweaters. But was it a conscious decision, that you like green? No, it was not. You are not deciding this, and certainly not consciously. This too is something that happens to your consciousness, that you only perceive.

Now... I've drawn an image of human beings that seem to be puppets, biological robots, just consciously experiencing all that must happen, all they must do because the future is based on the past and on random chance. And let me say this very clearly: if the world was a purely materialistic, this depressing world would be reality. I do not see a way around that honestly. Do you? Can you see a loophole into which human freedom could enter in a purely materialistic world?

Well there is one loophole... that there is something like spirit. That the world is made up of more than matter. That there is a reality in which you can decide without your decision having any cause other than yourself. This is freedom, this is the only way in which freedom can exist. And I don't think I'm mistaken about it, I really think that every materialist who believes in human freedom, has either a different definition of that term, or he has not thought this through properly.

I believe this freedom exists, I believe that the world has a spiritual nature, that is behind all material nature. But what is spiritual freedom? It certainly is not the choice wether you like green, or wether you like chocolate icecream, or wether you prefer a woman's body with a beautiful face over a woman who has curves. This obviously is innate.

Gosh yeah, there are lots and lots of parts missing, for you to understand my how I can think the way I think. I'm only starting to see that.

So let's continue. I believe the world is not made up of freely choosing individuals. I think most of the things we perceive as choices, are not actually choices, but results of choices that came beforehand. I think that the producer of Gogglebox did not consciously decide to create gogglebox. Quite in contrast he made some moral choice beforehand that drove her to do this. And not only this, it is not his own personal choice that lead to the creation of gogglebox, it is the sum of collective choices of all mankind that had this terrible outcome.

You get me? You do evil, Comrade Dmitri does evil, Tania Alexander also does evil, and makes herself a tool for evil, and thus – due to all this evil – gogglebox becomes a reality. It is not a conscious stupid choice to create gogglebox... that is only the surface, that is as what it appears. But below the surface is the spiritual reality. If you do good, you become an instrument of goodness, if you do bad, you become an instrument of evil. Your conscious choices are not in fact conscious choices. And they are not free choices. However your spritual choices, those are the real ones, those are the free choices.

And of course it is hard to get a grip on what those spiritual choices really are, because spirit is not something that can be understood by the mind. The mind is what thinks, what concludes, and maybe even the place where the emotions sit. But the mind is not the entity that makes the free choices. The place of the choices is not a thinking, logical entity. The place of the choices is the soul... something the mind can never understand, nor has to understand. The soul is not a thinking entity. The soul is a knowing entity. It knows that it does evil, or it could not be called evil.

And what we see acted out in the world, seem like lots of stupid conscious choices, lots of lack of mind. But that is not the case. The truth is, we see the results of many spiritual, many moral and evil choices of many many souls. Choices that are free precisely because they have no cause. And those choices make people instruments of good or evil. Not their free conscious decisions, a thing that does not exist as people define it, but their free, spiritual, moral choices, that are not based on logic, but simply on the soul's knowledge of good and bad, the soul's connection to God.

I think that the whole state of the world, is the result of our collective evil choices and of giving evil power over us.

Have you gotten a glimpse how I am able to think that humanity is responsible for the mess it is in, and that God loves us? I guess I haven't been able to see the parallel between my thinking and the "mind-hive" idea you brought up before. Now I do. I set a few outside parameters a bit different than you, but there is certainly a similarity don't you think?

[pe7erpark3r]

@Blanket said in My new world view:

@pe7erpark3r
So we are all in existence purely as a figment of “God”’s imagination?

No no, it was God's absolute intention to make something very very real. This is not just an imagination, He has given each of us utter reality. We are all real in his Spirit.

Puppets of formation whose only purpose is to act out “God”’s curious imagination.. “I wonder how much it would hurt to feel hated because I was born here not there..?” or “I wonder how much fear and suffering a child can endure?”

Well obviously that cannot be the purpose, because God is not curious... He does not need to imagine anything to know the answers to those questions, and He does not have to create anything to know them either. The purpose is something very very different.

We’re here because one being created us and plays with us for.. entertainment. Quite callous. Ironically it fits, and both creator and playing pieces can continue to deny responsibility.

God does not need entertainment, and He does not play games, that would be entirely meaningless for someone who knows every outcome of every action... He's dead seriously about this world He created in His spirit. And He does not deny responsibility at all. He does not even deny the responsibility we have and do deny. In fact He takes it all upon Himself. That is why He died on the cross. He takes our responsibility for our evil choices and frees us from the evil we invited upon ourselves – in as much as we allow Him to. If we really did say "yes" to Him, if mankind allowed Him to save us, then we would have paradise on earth. But he never takes away anybody's freedom, and so the world is in this state it is. If we do not convert, then this – Corona – will only be the beginning of the results our evil deeds bring upon us.

And no, no, it's not God's fault, that you don't take His stretched out helping Hand. Yes, He does want you to change your ways, and that is precisely because changing your ways is what makes the world a better place. Yes He tells you what you have got to do. Yes, this is the hand he stretches out to you, because yes, this is what saves you and those around you. Obeying His Law of Love is what creates paradise on earth for every child.

[pe7erpark3r]

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

@Imduck said in My new world view:

@pe7erpark3r Um..maybe yes N maybe no.God...yeah that guy(or girl..lol) has got all sorts of mysteries revolving around him.Yeah thats true. But God's thoughts forming our every day life is..kinda hard to perceive.

What makes it hard to perceive? It seems easy enough of an analogy. I can imagine a single room in all detail, and I can imagine it changing over the years. I can imagine all of the world around me, if I close my eyes. I can even imagine atoms, quantum particles... I can imagine numbers, mathematical formula, physics. I can imagine emotions, I can imagine consciousness, for I am conscious. I can imagine anything I've ever encountered. The only thing I cannot do is imagine more than around 10 things at the same time, and I cannot imagine those 10 things in every detail. I can only imagine each detail one at a time. So... But I can extrapolate to someone who can imagine things in unimaginable detail and an unimaginable amount of things at the same time. I mean just take computer games these days. Apparently a computer can simulate a whole world in impossible detail already today. And those game worlds are built on pieces of human imagination.

Yeah..god believers would say Big Bang N such other processes like the Evolution..is God's way of shaping our world.Could be.
But imagine a pen for instance..ur writing with it.Its got a past ryt?Like someone got its raw materials..then someone takes them all together N u get the...pen in the end.sooo,we r kinda using the pen,but do we ever wonder abt its past while using it?#abstraction....N lol lets kinda limit Gos's thoughts to the first phase..not the other two.Soo,yea..

That is another kind of world view, also an interesting one.

N lol ig we can understand God .....unless Maybe He is a Fifth-Dimension Being..lol then we are limited to understand Him.

He's spirit, and we are entirely limited to understanding Him. That's not like being five dimensional, that's more like being "outside of" any kind of dimension. I mean outside of time and space. Something entirely different. Something so differerent, like the one imagining the world would be from the world He imagines. It really is a good analogy :joy:

P.s:Lol im not an atheist...just use God N Nature(as in earth N other forces at play like gravity maybe?) intechangebly.N am open to anyone to chg my thoughts.
xDDDD

I think there is only one meaningful way of meeting God, and that is to encounter, to experience the Holy Spirit. This is something that can happen, you should go seek out opportunities to meet Him. He'll let you find Him if you earnestly seek.

However there are countless ways of thinking that will stop you from even giving Him a chance...

[Indrid Cold]

Oh Mr @pe7erpark3r, Thanks, thanks, thanks as ever for your thoughtful reply (and BTW, I hope you're doing alright 'in these difficult times').

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

Do you? Can you see a loophole into which human freedom could enter in a purely materialistic world?

I think it boils down to how we as individuals perceive / experience / and-or imagine consciousness. I'd define it as a kind of duality within your own mind, where the dominant part can bring as much self-examination onto the secondary, more practical part as it deems necess. And that's a kind of supernatural, godly freedom (in my opinion). It's also a kind of sponge-like, snowball effect: the dominant conscious part of our minds isn't foolish. It starts cross-referencing everything. Morality. Love. Irony <-- or at least, it doesn't have an excuse for not doing that, not having the lateral thinking processing power to make existential judgements.

But this vision you've got of the world as good-and-evil choices fighting tooth-and-nail for dominance, and the spiritual world of God as a hard-to-perceive implicate order -- I admit that would be my solution of choice, too. I like the way you're not afraid to go bleak:

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

But the mind is not the entity that makes the free choices. The place of the choices is not a thinking, logical entity. The place of the choices is the soul... something the mind can never understand, nor has to understand.

I like the way you're willing to describe our minds as places inherently lost, unsure and morally claustrophobic ...and also envision a positive outcome via God. That would be cool. But I need persuading.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Indrid-Cold said in My new world view:

Oh Mr @pe7erpark3r, Thanks, thanks, thanks as ever for your thoughtful reply (and BTW, I hope you're doing alright 'in these difficult times').

Well I'm not really affected by the changes since I'm a programmer. But I will be in a few months, depending on the hit the economy takes. So I guess I'm rather worried, and feeling unsure about the future. I feel like I want to do something about this mess, but I really can't... How are you doing?

[pe7erpark3r]

do you also have this? sometimes tws doesn't let me post things...

[pe7erpark3r]

I wrote up a whole reply, and it doesn't let it pass.. no idea why

[pe7erpark3r]

I think it boils down to how we as individuals perceive / experience / and-or imagine consciousness. I'd define it as a kind of duality within your own mind, where the dominant part can bring as much self-examination onto the secondary, more practical part as it deems necess. And that's a kind of supernatural, godly freedom (in my opinion). It's also a kind of sponge-like, snowball effect: the dominant conscious part of our minds isn't foolish. It starts cross-referencing everything. Morality. Love. Irony < - or at least, it doesn't have an excuse for not doing that, not having the lateral thinking processing power to make existential judgements.

You see the dominent part of consiousness as the actor... Fair enough. And I'll not disagree with you, actually the freedom we have in the given, pre-existing reality of our minds, and of our environment, is quite something.

[pe7erpark3r]

Have you permeated my point about the lack of a loophole? I'll try to put it in different words, just to be sure: You know how atoms work right? And how they form molecules. And they do so according to physical + chemical laws. And together they form our bodies, according to the plan in the DNA, still all adhering to those physical laws. And then there is the brain, which has yet higher functions than the body, which can compute input from the senses, and generates various kinds of outputs.

[pe7erpark3r]

Now consciousness is a mystery ofc. And I agree with you, that it is a kind of "supernatural, godly" thing, and by agree I mean, I do believe this too. And this believe stands in contrast with a purely materialistic worldview. Because in a world made out of matter only, consciousness must be a function of the brain. And since the brain adheres fully to the physical laws, it is somewhat mechanic, fully deterministic.

[pe7erpark3r]

Well almost, since there are random quantum effects, that are certainly at work in the brain. But that's chance changing the path of how things run in the brain and not freedom.

So, if the world was purely materialistic then we would be fully deterministic machines, influenced by chance. Consciousness would be nothing other than a function of the underlying system. I mean yes, the whole would be more than it's parts. But it would not transcend the framework, it would not introduce actual free choice.

I don't believe the world is purely materialistic. I believe it might not at all be materialistic...

[pe7erpark3r]

But this vision you've got of the world as good-and-evil choices fighting tooth-and-nail for dominance, and the spiritual world of God as a hard-to-perceive implicate order -- I admit that would be my solution of choice, too. I like the way you're not afraid to go bleak:

@pe7erpark3r said in My new world view:

But the mind is not the entity that makes the free choices. The place of the choices is not a thinking, logical entity. The place of the choices is the soul... something the mind can never understand, nor has to understand.

I like the way you're willing to describe our minds as places inherently lost, unsure and morally claustrophobic ...and also envision a positive outcome via God. That would be cool. But I need persuading.

Well it somehow seems like a biographically influenced worldview. I was agnostic before I became christian again. And I've realized quite some time ago, that a purely materialistic world must indeed a very bleak world.

[pe7erpark3r]

I wonder how one would be able to persuade someone as deep a thinker as you. And someone, who thinks in so amazingly different frames than me. Help me a bit here... What could persuade you? Would it make you curious to see actual predictions come true in the real world? Would you need a mystical experience? Do you need a saint to act out what christ teaches? What's the thing, that could change your view on this?

[pe7erpark3r]

Sorry for splitting my reply in so many short replies, there is some technical glitch in tws that didn't let me post the thing as a hole. All my previous posts were in reply to @Indrid-Cold

[Indrid Cold]

@pe7erpark3r Thanx for your epic, multi-part reply. I'm not panicky exactly about the UK economy, because I'm using the logic that - since we're all off work at the same time - everything will resume as b4 once the vaccine has been developed. Also, I think I've got these plusses on my side - I'm the fourth longest serving member of my company (out of 40) and I have a lot of knowledge in my head, and it'd be crazy to get rid of me.

"Deep thinker"? Not me. I really have to concentrate or I'll just start panting like a dog and staring at the sun. But vizaviz your idea of the brain and consciousness being limited to materialistic terms -- I base a lot of my thinking on this subject on the writings of Bernardo Kastrup, who's cross-referenced and collated a lot of research into the way unconnected quantum effects might be able to influence brain axons.

So that's one reason I found it fascinating that you attributed quantum effects in the brain as simple chance -- on one hand, that's a really cool way of looking at it, since all too often a lot of people use quantum theory to justify anything and everything in the macrocosmic world, and that's not the way it works.

If you look into the phenomenon of remote viewing, there's some very convincing statistics. I, for one, can envision in my mind the way a hightened collective unconscious might collapse quantum fields (either in this world, or somewhere else) into human-orientated stuff. But even if you do dismiss consciousness as limited to the materialistic world, just the idea -- I think -- is the best chance of civilisation has of progressing. Imagine if we ran our politics along the lines of a meditative, ultra-intimate 'second mind' monitoring the day-to-actions of our lives proper? I don't get why God wouldn't want to take advantage of that idea. I mean, I can understand the gnostic idea of a deliberately flawed mortal world as well as anyone, but, but, but there's still got to be a visible way through.

I fully acknowledge it could be my sloppy understanding of Jesus' message, or his general vibe.

But yeah. Take care fella.

[pe7erpark3r]

@Indrid-Cold said in My new world view:

I don't get why God wouldn't want to take advantage of that idea. I mean, I can understand the gnostic idea of a deliberately flawed mortal world as well as anyone, but, but, but there's still got to be a visible way through.

I fully acknowledge it could be my sloppy understanding of Jesus' message, or his general vibe.

But yeah. Take care fella.

I'd really love to get an answer to this question:

I wonder how one would be able to persuade someone as deep a thinker as you. And someone, who thinks in so amazingly different frames than me. Help me a bit here... What could persuade you? Would it make you curious to see actual predictions come true in the real world? Would you need a mystical experience? Do you need a saint to act out what christ teaches? What's the thing, that could change your view on this?

Or did you answer it by saying you'd need a better understanding of Christ's message?

I'll have to read your post again though, I think I'll think more about it tomorrow :yum: