@Janet
-self-realized
-genuine, authentic
-laughs at self
-makes peace with their warts
-loves oneself
-appreciates recognition/validation but does not require or expect it
-celebrates the success of others
-opts for thoughts on novel solutions to, rather than complaining about, problems
-takes care of themselves
-is generous
..could have just said mature and confident. dammit!!

I had a.. well not quite a fight more of a discussion with my sister-in-law. Her hubby is my younger brother. I'm an expat and spend most of my time overseas but when I'm back I usually stay with my brother and her and their two young kids. We never really discussed this arrangement explicitly - just came to pass and it's how we've carried on the past 10 years or so. We're all in our mid-to-late thirties.

Anyway, we sat down a few days ago to have an open discussion about our relationship. I opened by asking her to let me know if anything I said was coming off as condescending - as although I don't ever have any intention of coming off that way I think that sometimes does happen. I also stated that my only real hope in having a chat like this was to better understand one another.

I started by simply asking if she was ok with the fact that I live with her while I'm back - this particular interval has been longer due to covid and travel restrictions. We'd never really addressed it explicitly. Overall sounds like we're both ok with the arrangements, understanding there will always be some friction when you live with another human. We're both somewhat reasonable adults so we manage.

We then got into a discussion about an event that transpired at a social gathering a few days prior wherein she felt attacked by me, my brother (her hubby), and my other brother and responded with attacks of her own.

I think pretty much everything I said to her was responded to as if it was an attack.. despite by best efforts at every turn to pull out of a me vs you conversation into a discussion where we were both on the same side of the table. She misinterpreted most of what I said and I struggled to correct those misunderstanding as they happened in real time.

In the middle of this part of this discussion after she finished one of her rebuttals to something I had said (which again was not at all intended to be an attack/judgment of any sort) I tried to offer an olive branch in the form of "Hey, you know I advocate for you and defend you when you're not around." To which she defiantly responded "like to who, I'm not sure I believe that." I mentioned my mother as an example.

Didn't really have any effect as the conversation continued with me trying to clarify and gain a better understanding of her thought/feelings and being received as an attacker.. not getting any real authentic/genuine feedback. I was very frustrated by the inability to get her to understand the real meaning of anything I was saying. I was visibly disheartened by the experience. I felt completely defeated as I felt I approached her with open arms and an open mind willing to examine myself, her, our relationship.. willing to be vulnerable even.. and it was met mostly with attacks. She condescended me, talked to me like she was disciplining a child at one point, judged, invalidated, and perhaps most disturbing seemingly has written me off in some ways.

A few hours later I received an text from my mother stating she was very upset with me. I texted her back and she informed me that my sister in law had told her "somedumbguy told me that you talk trash about me. Is that true? I don't know if he just said that to try to hurt me or..."

I spoke to my mother on the phone for the better part of an hour explaining that what my sis-in-law had said was not true. She was flat out lying and, per usual, exaggerating/fudging things. I let my Mom know I would never violate her trust and discuss what her and I talk about concerning my sis-in-law - what she says in confidence to me is kept in confidence. I told her exactly what I said to my sis-in-law and further promised I would never even mention my mom again in conversation with my sis-in-law.

I was speechless.. I felt quite hurt and a little betrayed.. Sis and I hadn't explicitly declared we wouldn't talk about our discussion with others.. soo not a big deal that she did poke my mom about it... but the lie - which I can only gather was built upon a worst-case assumption about my saying I've advocated and defended her - that really stung.

Firstly for the complete misunderstanding.. if she had asked she'd have found out nothing near that was what I meant by saying what I said - far more innocuous.. but 2ndly because I felt my olive branch had been taken - widdled down into a small spear - and then used to stab me in the back. My olive branch was seen as an attack - per her statements to my Mom.. that she thought me saying something about advocating/defending her was in fact an attempt at attacking her.

Just curious for some feedback on this. I decided not to continue the conversation unless she opens it back up with me.. and also probably not without a 3rd party present.

It was odd, so very unlike him. He was a polite and considerate man, he almost always called before just showing up....

it's a feeling... an inspiration that fills you with humility and wonder, lulling as it humbles. It brings you to your knees and raises you to the heavens.

or..

it may just be a double bacon cheeseburger and a frostee

@Fana you're very kind :)

@OLIAG I guess the easiest example of a misinterpreted phrase was "I advocate and defend you around other people" expressed empathetically being interpreted as an attack as opposed to an attempt to bring us to the same side of the table... instead of on opposite sides.

I think that quote you mentioned is quite relevant. I spoke with my therapist about the whole shpeal and one of her more salient points was.. don't challenge a delusional persons delusions..

It's all good for the timebeing. Though painful, I did learn more about her from the exchange.. and although I was rebuffed at every turn I believe she at least understands some of my perspective more clearly even if she completely rejects it.

Thanks again for taking the time to engage this and reply thoughtfully!!

@Thales_BG Thanks for the message good sir. Relationships are rough. I've found myself pitching the "how to deal with someone with dementia argument" to friends quite often... and I'm exercising it a bit with my sis-in-law now.

Basic idea is that in some instances it's easier to just go along with whatever you're getting from the other side of whatever interaction "Yea Bob those selfish aliens sure do seem to like stealing all of your mayonnaise!" Instead of "What are you talking about!? John took the mayo. He's standing over there with it in his hand!!" Even though you may be right, in instances where the other party cannot handle criticism or their delusions being exposed... your correction serves only to further alienate the other party - which pushes you both away from having a productive interaction.

People are complicated. It's funny. Although she can be a whole set of things that drive me nuts when she's feeling on edge/anxious/stressed when she's not in that state we get along just fine, sharing giggles over nonverbal exchanges, collectively teasing my brother, or laughing at ourselves for stupid/silly things we do. I suppose it is what is is for now and that's fine.

I don't know if she has any guilt in the mix of whatever is going on inside of her emotionally, from what little we've touched on it sounds like she holds onto to some resentment towards me from over a decade ago. Perceived slights from things said and done that were interpreted very negatively - interpretations that are a far cry from my actual intentions or actual meaning. Seems the book is closed on those things on her side - no space to discuss or form new understandings - I am whatever she's judged me to be based on her interpretation of those events.. I get no say.

I also challenge myself to hold no resent towards her, although I certainly do fail in moments :)

I like... have almost figured out how to navigate posting/replying properly :dog:

@Thales_BG Thanks for the message good sir. Relationships are rough. I've found myself pitching the "how to deal with someone with dementia argument" to friends quite often... and I'm exercising it a bit with my sis-in-law now.

Basic idea is that in some instances it's easier to just go along with whatever you're getting from the other side of whatever interaction "Yea Bob those selfish aliens sure do seem to like stealing all of your mayonnaise!" Instead of "What are you talking about!? John took the mayo. He's standing over there with it in his hand!!" Even though you may be right, in instances where the other party cannot handle criticism or their delusions being exposed... your correction serves only to further alienate the other party - which pushes you both away from having a productive interaction.

People are complicated. It's funny. Although she can be a whole set of things that drive me nuts when she's feeling on edge/anxious/stressed when she's not in that state we get along just fine, sharing giggles over nonverbal exchanges, collectively teasing my brother, or laughing at ourselves for stupid/silly things we do. I suppose it is what is is for now and that's fine.

I don't know if she has any guilt in the mix of whatever is going on inside of her emotionally, from what little we've touched on it sounds like she holds onto to some resentment towards me from over a decade ago. Perceived slights from things said and done that were interpreted very negatively - interpretations that are a far cry from my actual intentions or actual meaning. Seems the book is closed on those things on her side - no space to discuss or form new understandings - I am whatever she's judged me to be based on her interpretation of those events.. I get no say.

I also challenge myself to hold no resent towards her, although I certainly do fail in moments 🙂

what kind of help you looking for?

it's a feeling... an inspiration that fills you with humility and wonder, lulling as it humbles. It brings you to your knees and raises you to the heavens.

or..

it may just be a double bacon cheeseburger and a frostee

what kind of help you looking for?

I like... have almost figured out how to navigate posting/replying properly :dog:

@Thales_BG Thanks for the message good sir. Relationships are rough. I've found myself pitching the "how to deal with someone with dementia argument" to friends quite often... and I'm exercising it a bit with my sis-in-law now.

Basic idea is that in some instances it's easier to just go along with whatever you're getting from the other side of whatever interaction "Yea Bob those selfish aliens sure do seem to like stealing all of your mayonnaise!" Instead of "What are you talking about!? John took the mayo. He's standing over there with it in his hand!!" Even though you may be right, in instances where the other party cannot handle criticism or their delusions being exposed... your correction serves only to further alienate the other party - which pushes you both away from having a productive interaction.

People are complicated. It's funny. Although she can be a whole set of things that drive me nuts when she's feeling on edge/anxious/stressed when she's not in that state we get along just fine, sharing giggles over nonverbal exchanges, collectively teasing my brother, or laughing at ourselves for stupid/silly things we do. I suppose it is what is is for now and that's fine.

I don't know if she has any guilt in the mix of whatever is going on inside of her emotionally, from what little we've touched on it sounds like she holds onto to some resentment towards me from over a decade ago. Perceived slights from things said and done that were interpreted very negatively - interpretations that are a far cry from my actual intentions or actual meaning. Seems the book is closed on those things on her side - no space to discuss or form new understandings - I am whatever she's judged me to be based on her interpretation of those events.. I get no say.

I also challenge myself to hold no resent towards her, although I certainly do fail in moments 🙂

It was odd, so very unlike him. He was a polite and considerate man, he almost always called before just showing up....

@Thales_BG Thanks for the message good sir. Relationships are rough. I've found myself pitching the "how to deal with someone with dementia argument" to friends quite often... and I'm exercising it a bit with my sis-in-law now.

Basic idea is that in some instances it's easier to just go along with whatever you're getting from the other side of whatever interaction "Yea Bob those selfish aliens sure do seem to like stealing all of your mayonnaise!" Instead of "What are you talking about!? John took the mayo. He's standing over there with it in his hand!!" Even though you may be right, in instances where the other party cannot handle criticism or their delusions being exposed... your correction serves only to further alienate the other party - which pushes you both away from having a productive interaction.

People are complicated. It's funny. Although she can be a whole set of things that drive me nuts when she's feeling on edge/anxious/stressed when she's not in that state we get along just fine, sharing giggles over nonverbal exchanges, collectively teasing my brother, or laughing at ourselves for stupid/silly things we do. I suppose it is what is is for now and that's fine.

I don't know if she has any guilt in the mix of whatever is going on inside of her emotionally, from what little we've touched on it sounds like she holds onto to some resentment towards me from over a decade ago. Perceived slights from things said and done that were interpreted very negatively - interpretations that are a far cry from my actual intentions or actual meaning. Seems the book is closed on those things on her side - no space to discuss or form new understandings - I am whatever she's judged me to be based on her interpretation of those events.. I get no say.

I also challenge myself to hold no resent towards her, although I certainly do fail in moments :)

@Dang-girl I've found in my experience that that and many other barriers (defensiveness, misunderstanding, catastrophizing, mindreading, name calling, etc) to good communication grow and shrink in severity in congruence with the intensity of unmoderated emotion being experienced by the barrier producing party.

I've experienced it both as the offending party - producing those barriers.. the more emotional and unchecked I am the more likely I am to create obstacles and as a receiver of said obstacles

@OLIAG I guess the easiest example of a misinterpreted phrase was "I advocate and defend you around other people" expressed empathetically being interpreted as an attack as opposed to an attempt to bring us to the same side of the table... instead of on opposite sides.

I think that quote you mentioned is quite relevant. I spoke with my therapist about the whole shpeal and one of her more salient points was.. don't challenge a delusional persons delusions..

It's all good for the timebeing. Though painful, I did learn more about her from the exchange.. and although I was rebuffed at every turn I believe she at least understands some of my perspective more clearly even if she completely rejects it.

Thanks again for taking the time to engage this and reply thoughtfully!!

@Janet
-self-realized
-genuine, authentic
-laughs at self
-makes peace with their warts
-loves oneself
-appreciates recognition/validation but does not require or expect it
-celebrates the success of others
-opts for thoughts on novel solutions to, rather than complaining about, problems
-takes care of themselves
-is generous
..could have just said mature and confident. dammit!!

@OLIAG said in Just Looking for a little emotional support/perspective:

I would totally lose my interest to even live close to someone who would grab your hand just to drag you in the hole they are.

it truly is folly to entirely deny someone close over that.

Found those two thoughts resonated with me strongly. dragging me into her hole - brilliantly weaved good sir/maddam!!

Generally agreed about miscommunication - had to let the anger about the lying dissipate before I could revisit and emotionally accept that fully.

I believe you're spot on with the insecurities - again lots at play that is impractical to share here.. without writing a novel. The best way I've found to put all the pieces together is that it may all be about self-protection on her side...

Her exaggerating/hyperbolizing/fabricating has been known and acknowledged by her and both my family and hers for quite some time..

I don't think I've mentioned the, how to put it. She'll sometimes push a discussion/argument in a direction wherein she's beyond reproach.

For example an argument about how to cook eggs becomes a matter of women's rights.. or an argument about whether or not to run the dishwasher after you've emptied out the sink or to wait until it's full becomes about racial justice. (We're all white or white mixed fyi).

She'll then occupy the position of social justice warrior for either cause and you're left in the position of being judged an enemy of that cause if you voice an opinion in opposition to hers. "I just think we should save water and run it when it's full" = I'm a hater of women that should be ashamed of myself.

I would much rather just ask her her own thoughts about these things than speculate/mind read from the outside. For now I think I'll have to make peace with the fact that that probably isn't possible - first have to figure out how to get on the same page on reality (I'd wager a dispassionate explanation of this reality, corroborated by those she herself cares about/respects would be met with denial and or a emphatic claim that we are all gaslighting her)

It's been a week - I've softly resolved, should she engage me on the topic again, to give up on getting an understanding of me on her side of the fence for now. I think the best chance of having a productive conversation with her would be for me/us to solely focus on understanding her.. her perspective on events that have transpired, her thoughts and feelings around those events, and her own understanding of herself. Be validation incarnate.