Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational



  • Atheism assumes that God is not real, and claims to be entirely rational. But that second part about, being entirely rational, can be proven to be wrong, simply by thinking it through just once:

    So lets assume there is no God. Then the universe at some point just popped into existence right? Of course not. That wouldn't make any sense now would it?

    Some scientest might throw in, that the universe itself might be a fluctuation of a quantum field, or simply one of many universes popping out of whatever they pop out.

    And of course they could be right, and of course my question to them remains the same: Then did this something that the universe popped out of just suddenly pop into existence? Of course not, that wouldn't make any sense either.

    Then this must mean, that this nature (or space or quantum field or whatever unfathomable thing the universe popped out of) has always been there, has always existed, eternally. Existence itself must be eternal then, if it wasn't created by an eternal God. Think it through well. There is no third option, so much is for sure...

    Now lets construct an example, that is able to make us see the problem here properly: Imagine you borrowed a bike from your friend. And this friend had borrowed it from another friend. And this guy again borrowed it. And so on and so forth. The bike was given from one person to the next. Reaching back through history, through time.

    Let's not complicate things by assuming there was a big bang for the sake of the example though. Let's just assume that this universe itself is eternal and not the quantum field it popped out of.

    So since the universe is eternal (and the bike symbolizes existence itself), this chain stretches into the past, without end... It is equally eternal. Now, answer this question: Why is there a bike? How can it always be borrowed, if there is no original owner?

    It simply makes no sense to reason, it does not compute in our rational mind. An eternal universe/multiverse is irrational in the very essence of the word.



  • I completely agree with most of the things you've said however I kinda disagree with the fact that all atheists are irrational..I mean I've met a few who have gone a little too far, however most of the things that atheists say make sense. I guess there are a few places where religious people fail to think out of the box but the atheists do...having an atheist friend I see him being a little more rational than me sometimes. The road to atheism tends to be very personal and individual and is mostly based upon the circumstances that the person experiences that is why they sometimes tend to be irrational . Believing or not believing in God is completely a personal choice. Sometimes people convert for freedom, sometimes to just get away from things, bad experiences and whatsoever and sometimes because of an irrational theory..so yeah it is not completely irrational.


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    One scientist was asked a question:
    - Is science and faith are linked with each other?
    - Yes of course! - the scientist answered.
    - Do you believe in God?
    - No..
    - But how?! You just said that science and faith are linked?
    - Many scientist of different epochs were religious. This single fact is enough to prove that faith and science are linked.

    Atheism is also some kind of faith, in my point of view. To prove the God's existence or not existence, we need to visit each corner of the universe in different dimensions (and even this wouldn't be enough). So the only thing we have to do in this case - is to choose by ourselves to believe or not.



  • @Anastasia-Smith said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r I completely agree with most of the things you've said however I kinda disagree with the fact that all atheists are irrational..I mean I've met a few who have gone a little too far, however most atheists sometimes make sense. I guess there are a few places where religious people fail to think out of the box but the atheists do...having an atheist friend I see him being a little more rational than me sometimes. The road to atheism tends to be very personal and individual and is mostly based upon the circumstances that the person experiences that is why they sometimes tend to be irrational . Believing or not believing in God is completely a personal choice. Sometimes people convert for freedom, sometimes to just get away from things, bad experiences and whatsoever and sometimes because of an irrational theory..so yeah it is not completely irrational.

    Interesting point you bring up here: The atheists. Since I was only talking about the idea of atheism itself (which is as shown irrational), this really adds some value.

    In our time and age it is very common for educated and smart people to be atheists. Hesitantly (because I'm not so sure about the actual statistics) I would even hypothesize that there are more rational people among atheists in the west than among the theists.

    You are certainly right, that the personal history often plays the most significant role in people's world view, may they be converts from atheism to faith or former believers.

    And then it is also true, that we as human beings, are actually quite irrational most of the time, even those who live by their ability to reason (scientists, philosophers, authors, me :yum:).



  • @petrapark3r in your attempts to summarize scientific theories regarding the creation of the universe there is one fundamental fact that seems to have eluded you. the scientific theories regarding the creation of the universe are not facts, they are theories based on available facts. Science does not explain how the universe came to be, it only proposes theories based on proven evidence.
    Science does not say "we know how the universe was created", science says "this is what we can prove based on evidence, theories that seem to fit that evidence, and we are trying to find out more".

    With religion, when one does not know the answer to a question they make the answer be "because of God". With science, when one does not know the answer to a question one will say "I do not know but these are the facts we have so far".

    And unlike relegions science depends on facts that can be proven, tested, and recreated.

    You can have faith in anything. That doesn't make it real.


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    @Mike_Hawk God doesn't want slaves, he wants servants. Slaves are unwilling workers, and servants are those who work with the passion to serve. If God was egotistical he would have revealed himself long ago, and forced us to obey him, or perish. How can any being who has the limits of 120 years or less ever pretend to know enough in order to be a worthy witness of all things that exists in the universe? If we can't be humble to God what do you expect of him? Do you want him to force himself upon you? I doubt that. If we can't represent the ways of his only begotten son, and have the humility to confess the king himself who lead the way with complete confidence we don't deserve to be redeemed. There's always an agenda when it comes to us beings of the flesh.



  • @Raz0r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r Alright, so if u say that god was always there, then i can say that the popping of spaces were also always there....Think it through well.

    Indeed :grin:... I was hoping someone was going to make that point! You are absolutely right, God is also incomprehensible to our rational mind!

    So indeed, we must all accept, that whatever we believe about this world is in fact irrational! Atheism does not protect you from this :smirk:

    However there is one very important difference. Let's assume for one moment, that there is no multiverse for simplicity's sake. Let's assume that 14 billion years ago, "Let there be light" literally resulted in a giant burning explosion that we can watch today if we look far enough out into space (isn't that awsome?): the big bang.

    Yes, the reason for being itself, the reason for why there is anything will be irrational, but if you assume that this reason is God, you do win one thing:

    The universe suddenly makes complete sense to our rational mind. From the beginning, from the big bang on, the world has a reason, is logical, mathematical, is causal and makes sense to us. And I, as a rational thinker, very much prefer this idea over a world, that in itself is irrational.


  • 666_Satanist_666 🍋 Lemon 🍋 over limes tws gay club but no homo Fake Moderators We Are Groot! Movie Buff Global Moderator

    @petrapark3r hi, I only came here to point out that “Pet” in French means fart.

    G’dday (:



  • If god does exist, He is certainly not worthy if praise. He is a mass-murdering, egomaniacal pedophile who sanctions slavery.



  • @steelfirehawk said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Mike_Hawk God doesn't want slaves, he wants servants. Slaves are unwilling workers, and servants are those who work with the passion to serve. If God was egotistical he would have revealed himself long ago, and forced us to obey him, or perish. How can any being who has the limits of 120 years or less ever pretend to know enough in order to be a worthy witness of all things that exists in the universe? If we can't be humble to God what do you expect of him? Do you want him to force himself upon you? I doubt that. If we can't represent the ways of his only begotten son, and have the humility to confess the king himself who lead the way with complete confidence we don't deserve to be redeemed. There's always an agenda when it comes to us beings of the flesh.

    That is a good way of argumentation!

    May I offer a piece of advice: This language you are always speaking of the "ways of the flesh". People don't understand it. Heck, I don't understand it. Learn to speak in ways that people can understand, so that you can serve God better.



  • @petrapark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    But it still seems like a good starting point for a conversation doesn't it?

    I always love the way you bring these religious ideas to site that's 90% a rat-up-a-drainpipe hook-up zone.



  • @WtfJudith said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r hi, I only came here to point out that “Pet” in French means fart.

    G’dday (:

    This must be one long brain fart of mine then :joy:



  • @petrapark3r What you just tried to do is "prove" that atheism is irrational by using irrational claims yourself though.. Difference between science and religion is that science actually does something regarding to that question while religion stayed the same ever since, not moving at all in any direction.
    I would rather use and follow logical arguments and be called atheist instead of believing in words and book that human wrote back in the days when the level of knowledge and evidence was at its lowest and rational ignorance was at the highest.
    To me, it seems that you're questioning science as a whole and trying to prove that there is God. There are different types of scientists today, they have different hypothesis and they work hard to either conclude if they are true or false, on the other hand, what do religious people do? On every "who, what, when, where, why" they will say: "it was God and it shouldn't be questioned" and that's it. - complete ignorance and disrespect to science, the same science that made this world a better place with all the innovations and changes.
    Science works with things that look irrational at first and through different actions it finds explanations and evidence for it, while religion is built on irrationality and follows it fully while neglecting every counterevidence that can be tested in space and time. If God exists, who created him? I guess another God. I respect religious people and their opinions, as long as they don't try to neglect science and use theories that science works with just to claim that scientists don't know anything and that they are irrational.


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    @petrapark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    I don't understand why you mention this here. I was saying that taking the bible literally in this sense (assuming God created the world in 7 earth days) would be a lack of intelligence, or maybe a laziness of thinking, on my part, since taking it literally in this sense is already contradictory because of the existence of two contradicting generation stories in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

    I agree on it. I mentioned it because I messed up some paragraphs earlier.

    What I meant by not reading Genesis literally is that I don't take the 7 days to be literal days of any kind. I take these as symbolic. For example the fact, that the first thing that God creates is light. This doesn't make any sense from a scientific viewpoint, and the people who lived back then had the same IQ level as us (if we believe the scientific consensus on human development). It must have been obvious even to them, that the sun is in fact the origin of light. Actually there are enough ancient texts that show that people did in fact understand this. So why in the world would God create light before the sun or the stars?

    I suppose our and their IQ’s were same but we cannot know the exact time without checking a clock. For an example, it is 09:00 PM in my country. I would like to sleep sleep at 12.00 AM. I will be unable to know the exact time 12.00 PM without having a clock or a PDA. Today I am talking with some virtual friends, the time will be spent up very swiftly. When I was attending the lecture in college, I wanted my time to spend quick. Assuming sun is not made yet but light has been made I may sleep at 12.30AM or even 2.00 AM. Thus, their 1 day was not exactly of 24 hours , it could be 22 hours or 26 hours. It will make creation dubious further. Therefore it cannot be definitely said that he completed his work in 7 days. Perhaps more than that or even lesser than that.

    you didnt refute me you avoided me

    I never avoided you. I disproved first argument of god in-apparently. Now I would write apparently.

    Why is there a bike? How can it always be borrowed, if there is no original owner?

    Bike was borrowed by A to B, B to C. A bought it from a showroom or a shop. This shopkeeper bought the bike form manufacturer. E, F, G, H A.K.A. laborers and some machines manufactured it together. Human created the bike and human created the God. I will explain how human created the God ahead.
    Now everyone will ask

    1. Who made the first humans ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’. ? -If Adam and Eve were the root causes or root cause of all things, they could birth the ants or plants together.
    2. Who created universe ? - I would elaborate materialism for it. It is more rational than assuming an invisible, unheard, unseen man in start of the chain.

    The answer is, that this is the light of reason, of understanding, of truth. If you want to understand where I'm coming from I recommend Dr. Jordan Peterson's lectures on the psychological significance of the bible.

    Bible was interpreted by different people. Their interpretation conflicts themselves so does that mean Bible is not a reliable source of christian theism ?

    This in turn means, that also the other days are to be understand symbolically.

    Again, interpretation of Bible in different way by anyone doesnt make any sense.

    It shows how God ordered everything, not just the things he created but also the time.

    That’s what you say but he never created the time. I was reading on Wikipedia today and pressed ctrl+F and typed ‘time’ but surprising thing was I could not find any sentence related to time and relation of God’. I want a reliable source for it. This was the article -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative

    All of Genesis speaks about God's relation to His creation and specifically His relation to us and our relation to Him and our relation to creation. God orders our life according to the order of days. This is what it is about.
    The sabbath is the holy day, it is the day of service to the Lord. It is on this day, that we pray most, and that we rest. And God does enjoy this love we bring Him on the seventh day. And if you enjoy something you can really relax.

    Then almighty creator is not God he is just a human. A banker or a teacher works for 6 days and rests on 7th day (which is Sunday). An omnipotence, perfect entity like him should never be tired. Also, this reminds me of some ancient Mughal kings. Those kings enjoy in their harem after defeating other kings with audacity. Aren’t those three persons exactly same (1. A Banker, 2. The God, 3. A Medieval King) ?

    What do you mean by this?

    I meant perception is the most reliable source of knowledge after inference. You never included we can perceive the five elements but God is so far from our senses. God is not perceived. If perception is the only reliable source of knowledge, we can rationally assert only the reality of perceptible objects. God, heaven, hell and any unperceived law cannot be believed in, because they are all beyond perception.
    Material objects are the only objects whose existence can be perceived and whose reality can be asserted. Matter is made of five elements. Not only non-living material objects but also living organisms, like plants, animal bodies, are composed of these five elements, by the combination of which they are produces and to which they are reduced on death

    I concede that there is a third choice: Agnosticism.
    And what about materialistic agnostic atheism ?
    Which means not believing that there is a God but saying you cannot know. In my opinion this is actually the only real alternative to believing that God exists.
    You defined the very correct definition of agnosticism but atheism is also an alternative to theism.

    The point is that God is his own reason and his own cause and since this is not understandable to our mind, He is irrational.

    God is the reason and human is its cause. God cannot be his own reason. Moreover I elaborate this point.
     
    'Heaven' and 'Hell' are the inventions of the priests whose professional interest lies in coaxing, threatening and making people perform the rituals or prayers. Enlightened men will always refuse to be duped by them. Not only in the old era but also in this one, priests scare everyone away. Religion and God are based mainly upon fear. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a better place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.

    I verified it with my own perception. I remembered when I used to believe in God just because I was told by my parents. I was just 9 yo in that moment. I wanted to entered the temple but the hindu priest of temple prohibited me to enter in it. People believe in caste-ism here but it was not an issue for me because I come in an upper level caste. He told me to give him some fruits or money. When I argued with him that temple is for everyone either he is miser or poor or rich, he cursed me and said I will go to hell because I didnt make happy my God.

    However to say this about the world (being its own reason and being its own cause), which is the only alternative, sounds quite strange. And it means the world would be non-understandable, irrational.

    The material elements produce the world, and the supposition of a creator is unnecessary. The objection may be raised: Can the material elements by themselves give rise to this wonderful world ? We find that even the production of an object like an earthen jar requires, in addition to clay which is its material cause, a potter who the efficient cause that shapes the material into the desired form. The five elements supply only the material cause of the world. Do we not require an efficient cause, like God, as the shaper and designer who turns the material elements into this wonderful world • ? In reply, we state that the material elements themselves have got each its fixed nature. It is by the natures and laws inherent in them that they combine together to form this world. There is thus no necessity for God. There is no proof that the objects of the world are the products of any design. They can be explained more reasonably as the fortuitous products of the elements.
    This theory tries to explain the world only by nature, it is sometimes called naturalism. It is also called mechanism because it denies the existence of conscious purpose behind the world and explains it as a mere mechanical or fortuitous combination of elements. This theory on the whole may also be called positivism, because it believes only in positive facts or observable phenomena.

    By what argument do you assume, that if God was the root cause, there could not be any houses?

    I assumed by cosmological argument.
    Also genesis 1:1 tells us that, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”
    While extolling the glory of Jesus, the apostle Paul says this about Him, “And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17 ESV).


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    @LeoWeirdo said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r atheism is for those who believe that science is a panacea that can answer all the questions in the universe. However, in reality, science has limitations and this is where religion comes in.

    Do you really think God will create or destroy matter/energy ?
    Religion was made by some smart people for controlling the population. Watch Zeitgeist
    Bible was made by a human not by a deist entity. Do you even know how much Bible is contradictory to Science ?

    1. Bible says the sky is blue when in actual fact the colour of the sky is a reflection of the ocean. The sky itself has no colour.
    2. The bible does not even mention that the sun has a limited lifespan and that it too will eventually die out as it runs out of fuel.
    3. Much through biblical times it was though that the sun rotates around the earth, when in actual fact the solar system is helio-centric: i.e. the earth rotates around the sun
    4. The existence of microscopic organisms including bacteria and viruses. Note the bibles only mentions beasts and fowls that god created.
      These were some examples. I could write more contradictory things but It will take my time

    @LeoWeirdo said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r I think we can only achieve the truth in time. Science is still in its infancy. We have not yet explored the vast universe.

    If Darwin's theory of evolution is true, then we are not alone in this universe.
    Actually, we should storm Area 51 on September to know whether aliens exist.

    Myths will always be myths
    There is not a UFO
    It is actually the semi-secret contract commuter airline which is using the call-sign "Janet" that transports workers from Las Vegas's McCarran Airport to the base.

    Meanwhile, I believe that while science can not yet answer the profundities of life and its precise origin, we should believe the notion of having a supreme being that created us.

    It meant you will believe in an unseen and unheard notion.
    By the way the guy who wrote this thread had an argument of first cause. If God I created this world then the God II will create him, God III will create God II and so on. Which God is real and which is not ?
    Whereas energy is real and self-caused. You or your god cannot create it. (First law of thermodynamics )

    @spaceboy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    One scientist was asked a question:
    - Is science and faith are linked with each other?
    - Yes of course! - the scientist answered.
    - Do you believe in God?
    - No..
    - But how?! You just said that science and faith are linked?

    - Many scientist of different epochs were religious. This single fact is enough to prove that faith and science are linked.

    Many theists are raised from their instincts
    No. of atheist scientists > no. of theist scientists
    Check both links very well
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

    Atheism is also some kind of faith, in my point of view. To prove the God's existence or not existence, we need to visit each corner of the universe in different dimensions (and even this wouldn't be enough). So the only thing we have to do in this case - is to choose by ourselves to believe or not.

    Atheism has two definitions

    1. There is no god, this definition is not based on faith. Will you call Bertrand Russell's atheism was based on his faith ? Apparently his all counterarguments for five proofs for god's existence were logical and valid.
    2. Lack of belief in god. Yes it is based on faith. This definition is psychological state of mind


  • @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Atheism assumes that God is not real, and claims to be entirely rational. But that second part about, being entirely rational, can be proven to be wrong, simply by thinking it through just once:

    So lets assume there is no God. Then the universe at some point just popped into existence right? Of course not. That wouldn't make any sense now would it?

    Some scientest might throw in, that the universe itself might be a fluctuation of a quantum field, or simply one of many universes popping out of whatever they pop out.

    And of course they could be right, and of course my question to them remains the same: Then did this something that the universe popped out of just suddenly pop into existence? Of course not, that wouldn't make any sense either.

    Then this must mean, that this nature (or space or quantum field or whatever unfathomable thing the universe popped out of) has always been there, has always existed, eternally. Existence itself must be eternal then, if it wasn't created by an eternal God. Think it through well. There is no third option, so much is for sure...

    Now lets construct an example, that is able to make us see the problem here properly: Imagine you borrowed a bike from your friend. And this friend had borrowed it from another friend. And this guy again borrowed it. And so on and so forth. The bike was given from one person to the next. Reaching back through history, through time.

    Let's not complicate things by assuming there was a big bang for the sake of the example though. Let's just assume that this universe itself is eternal and not the quantum field it popped out of.

    So since the universe is eternal (and the bike symbolizes existence itself), this chain stretches into the past, without end... It is equally eternal. Now, answer this question: Why is there a bike? How can it always be borrowed, if there is no original owner?

    It simply makes no sense to reason, it does not compute in our rational mind. An eternal universe/multiverse is irrational in the very essence of the word.

    We cannot even prove the existence of this universe and the world we see and feel, let alone proving the existence of god.



  • @petrapark3r Alright, so if u say that god was always there, then i can say that the popping of spaces were also always there....Think it through well.



  • @Mike_Hawk said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    If god does exist, He is certainly not worthy if praise. He is a mass-murdering, egomaniacal pedophile who sanctions slavery.

    Well, you can indeed conclude these things about the god of the philosophers, the one we can reason about like this. Because the god of the philosophers is not tight to a revelation, say the Bible for example. So you can basically blame everything on him.

    If we talk about the christian God, you would even be right about saying that natural catastrophies might be blamed on Him, even though the question of responsibility might still not be that easy to resolve here. But evil? Evil that people do, requires their free choice, or it would not be evil. The christian God does not sanction pedophily or slavery. Period. Don't spout generalizations like that... Or, if you really believe that, then get a better education.



  • @ScruffyMutt said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @petrapark3r in your attempts to summarize scientific theories regarding the creation of the universe there is one fundamental fact that seems to have eluded you. the scientific theories regarding the creation of the universe are not facts, they are theories based on available facts. Science does not explain how the universe came to be, it only proposes theories based on proven evidence.
    Science does not say "we know how the universe was created", science says "this is what we can prove based on evidence, theories that seem to fit that evidence, and we are trying to find out more".

    This was not an attempt to summarize scientific theories. I mentioned a few where they helped my argumentation.

    What I did was thinking through the atheistic viewpoint, which clearly has little to do with science, since as you said correctly science only proposes theories based on evidence (measurable things). There is no such thing as proven evidence btw. Science by its very nature does not prove (however it does conclude things).

    Of course I know the limits of science, and I am glad you do to. Many scientests however seem to not know. It seems to me, that the fact, that science has to have a tunnel vision which only allows it to see things that are indeed measurable, always tempts people into thinking that there cannot be anything outside of science, anything outside of the measurable. Even assuming this must be called unscientific, because it transfers the limits of science onto a worldview which clearly includes things that science cannot see.

    With religion, when one does not know the answer to a question they make the answer be "because of God". With science, when one does not know the answer to a question one will say "I do not know but these are the facts we have so far".

    Which is why I'm very fond of the catholic church, which to my knowledge is the only religious community, that clearly states that science is indeed what should be used to understand the measurable world, and to put a end to using God as a stopgap for every inexplicable phenomenon.

    And unlike relegions science depends on facts that can be proven, tested, and recreated.

    Indeed science is a very convincing thing. Don't conflate it with atheism though. That's clearly overstepping its boundaries.

    You can have faith in anything. That doesn't make it real.

    Agreed.



  • Nothing in the new testament supports slavery???

    "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly.(1 Peter 2:18-19)"

    That's new testament bruh.






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