If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists)

[TRose18]

human is.

[SUmof1]

@mcurie God created God

[TheStrangest]

Lol, that isn't a valid argument

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 I'll respond to something you said in another post here

@sumof1 said in What is @sumof1?:

@thestrangest 'miss clicking' 'miss click' it's misclick

It's a neologism, good to know. I genuinely thought it was miss click, thanks

1. Yes there is a God, The universe couldn't have just popped out of nowhere

It actually could have, not only has there been a full book written by a Lawrence Krauss who's a quantum physicist explaining how the laws of the universe permit that happening but Stephen Hawking said that once too in his documentary "intelligent design"

everything in the universe is perfected to levels 'natural selection' or 'mother nature' can't match and that is more than good reason enough

No it is not

1st what you provided here is the fine-tuning argument. Saying the universe is too well levelled/tuned for life for it not to have been designed by a god

No the universe is not fine tuned for life, not are 99% of all living things that ever existed on this planet are extinct and neither are human bodies perfect? As much as there is "intelligent design" there is equally stupid design as astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains here:

Not to even mention that yes, if any significant variable in the universe was different we would not exist but that doesn't mean that another form of life wouldn't have evolved on earth, infact if you understand natural selection you'll know that life evolves according to it's environment therefore if the environment on earth was in anyway not hospitable for our kind of life then it'd most likely be another kind of life that evolved here. I am not even mentioning the high possibility of there being completely different life forms on other planets in the cosmos

2. My family is Islamic but they have never forced it on me i choose to believe in it.

Is muslim*

Same, I'm an ex-muslim now agnostic atheist/anti-theist

I wouldn't say i follow it very closely but i follow through most things like not consuming alcohol or pork

Those aren't bad

I have looked into a lot of religions and i chose to stick with Islam though it may be biased as i was raised to believe in Islam.

(That is not the exact amount historians estimate but you get the idea)

It is quite a weird coincidence that 99% of the time children follow their parents religion, most religions contradict each other but all these children believe that they were born into the right religion and that all other people would burn in hell, don't you think?

Islam is in no way a good religion, not that any religion is good but it is particularly bad:

@sumof1 said in What is @sumof1?:

@thestrangest 'miss clicking' 'miss click' it's misclick

It's a neologism, good to now. I genuinely thought it was miss click, thanks

1. Yes there is a God, The universe couldn't have just popped out of nowhere

It actually could have, not only has there been a full book written by a Lawrence Krauss who's a quantum physicist explaining how the laws of the universe permit that happening but Stephen Hawking said that once too in his documentary "intelligent design"

everything in the universe is perfected to levels 'natural selection' or 'mother nature' can't match and that is more than good reason enough

No it is not

1st what you provided here is the fine-tuning argument. Saying the universe is too well levelled/tuned for life for it not to have been designed by a god

No the universe is not fine tuned for life, not are 99% of all living things that ever existed on this planet are extinct and neither are human bodies perfect? As much as there is "intelligent design" there is equally stupid design as astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains here:

Not to even mention that yes, if any significant variable in the universe was different we would not exist but that doesn't mean that another form of life wouldn't have evolved on earth, infact if you understand natural selection you'll know that life evolves according to it's environment therefore if the environment on earth was in anyway not hospitable for our kind of life then it'd most likely be another kind of life that evolved here

2. My family is Islamic but they have never forced it on me i choose to believe in it.

Is muslim*

Same, I'm an ex-muslim now agnostic atheist/anti-theist

I wouldn't say i follow it very closely but i follow through most things like not consuming alcohol or pork

Those aren't bad

I have looked into a lot of religions and i chose to stick with Islam though it may be biased as i was raised to believe in Islam.

(That is not the exact amount historians estimate but you get the idea)

It is quite a weird coincidence that 99% of the time children follow their parents religion, most religions contradict each other but all these children believe that they were born into the right religion and that all other people would burn in hell, don't you think?

Islam is in no way a good religion, not that any religion is good but it is particularly bad:

@ said in Do you think ISLAM is a religion of terrorism ?:

@notmyname Not all Muslims believe in islam at the same level. That's why not all muslims are violent. When i was a muslim i used to believe some stupid shit but i wasn't able to kill people even though I'm pretty sure if i staid in syria long enough i could have become a crazy murderer because of Islam. I have lost hope that you will doubt your beliefs, because you don't believe in evolution or the big bang even though they are facts in science, so you basically don't believe in science.
The quran says that the world was created in 6 days, which when compared to the fact of the big bang which shows how many quadrillions of years it took for the world to be created. It Is kind of like saying that it takes 30 minutes and not 9 months for a baby to be born. (Edit: make that 30 seconds not 30 minutes)
Let me prove to you that islam is not a religion of peace:
Part 1. Violent verses:

“Fight against those who do not obey Allah and do not believe in Allah or the Last Day and do not forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His messenger even if they are of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29

"Fight against those who do not obey Allah and do not believe in Allah or the Last Day and do not forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His messenger even though they are of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya With willing submissions and feel themselves subdued" surah 9 verse 29

“When the sacred months have passed, then kill the Mushrikin wherever you find them. Capture them. Besiege them. Lie in wait for them in each and every ambush but if they repent, and perform the prayers, and give zacat then leave their way free.” surah 9 verse 5

“They ask you about fighting during the sacred months. Tell them, fighting therein is a great sin but a greater sin is to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah, to disbelieve in him.” surah 2 verse 217

“Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out. Persecution is worse than slaughter.” Surah 2 verse 191

“When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks.” Surah 47 verse 4 (smite means cut, so this means that when you will meet the unbelievers, cut their necks)

“When your Lord revealed to the angels, ‘Truly I am with you. So, keep firm those who have believed. I will strike terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved. So, strike them at the necks and cut off their fingers.’” Surah 8 verse 12

“Oh you who believe, fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you and let them find harshness in you.” surah 9 verse 123

“Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow Him are merciful to one another but harsh to the disbeliever.” Surah 48 verse 29

“They wish that you would reject faith as they have rejected faith unless that you would all be equal. So, don’t take protectors from them unless they emigrate in the way of Allah but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them.” Surah 4 verse 89

Part 2. Verses against equality

Sexist verses:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made one superior to the other and because they spend to support them from their means. Therefore, righteous women are obedient and they guard in the husband’s absence what Allah orders them to guard. And, as to those women from whom you fear disobedience, give them a warning, send them to separate beds, and beat them.” Surah 4 verse 34

"Menstruating women are unclean, and men must stay away from them" Surah 2 verse 222

"Women are mens "fields," and men can have sex with them whenever they want" Surah 2 verse 223

"A woman is worth one-half of a man, and men are above women" Surah 4 verse 11, Surah 2 verse 282 ans Surah 2 verse 228

"Muslim men may marry up to 4 wives, including prepubecent girls, and can own sex slaves" Surah 4 verse 3, Surah 65 verse 4 and surah 4 verse 24

"Women must cover themselves and be seen only by relatives, eunuchs, slaves and children who have not yet had sex with women" Surah 24 verse 31

Homophobic verses:

"And (We sent) Lot when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty." Surah 7 verses 80-84

"And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."surah 4 verse 15-16

Now do you understand why I'm angry?
Because muslims say that the quran and islam are perfect but look at this.

And because research has shown (you can google this) that 88% of Muslims in Egypt and 62% of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.

So basically a lot of Muslims want me dead.

So don't tell me don't attack islam when a lot of Muslims want to kill me.

Get a quran and find the verses i showed you to see how everything I'm saying is true. And watch this too

:)

3. I don't care about homosexuals they can do whatever they want, to put it simply i don't hate the LGBT community but i don't support them either.

Good to know that you don't care

[SUmof1]

@thestrangest Do you really want to do this here? Fine.
.'
Firstly, 'Good to know' not 'Good to now'. And you're welcome.
If you want to talk about scientists then let's talk about scientists. Do you have any idea how many scientists believe in a (inactive) creator? Albert Einstein believed in the God of beauty his reasoning was that "the universe didn't have to be beautiful but it is". Dr Clifford Wilson believed in God and many others that you can look up for yourself. But wait, what are scientists trying to achieve in science? It's one thing, A unified theory of everything (Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking dreamt of the day when a unified theory would prevail). Why have a unified theory? This is what Stephen Hawking said : 'To read the mind of God'
Here's another comment he made on God : This contrasted with his 2010 book The Great Design, in which he said that the idea of God was "not necessary" to explain the origin of the universe as the laws of physics offer enough of an explanation. That statement that was seen as a change from his previous position on God and the universe as, in an interview with Reuters in 2007, Hawking said “I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science,” conceding that “the laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.”
What? He just said that there IS the need for a God to create the universe itself.
Now for this 'Lawrence Krauss' you mentioned (i've never even heard of him). What i'm going to say right now is considered to be a fact, There is NO quantum scientist out there who is better than Hawking. So the best quantum scientist believes in God, this is someone who deals with the universe and it's wonders everyday looking for an explanation (Dr. Hawking produced a lot of papers that gave a lot of answers, specifically on a matter (pun intended) that even Einstein failed to decipher, I'm talking about Black Holes. So if he believes in a God, do you?
Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory? Where nothing becomes something, tell me where or when in nature does a process take place where something is created out of nothing. There isn't one.
Now to that picture about 3000 gods, Those 3000 are not gods, all Greek mythological gods are not gods, they are embodiments of characteristics. Gods like Venus they are what the Greeks admired and worshipped, this similar to what Einstein believed he believed in multiple 'characteristics' and claimed them to be his god. Things like victory (nike) they used these terms to 'describe' or attempt to explain what it is by giving it a personality that is why all their gods have human-like features and a human body.
'Islam is in no way a good religion' and why is that?
Do I think Islam is a religion of terrorism?
Sure it is we kill for fun, i mean don't you believe all religions to be more or less the same, if you believe Islam to be a religion of terrorism then why aren't other religions like judaism, christianity, buddhism, hinduism religions of terrorism? is Islam different? Just like any other religion it has a God that the followers ship, so what's your reasoning for saying that?

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@thestrangest Do you really want to do this here? Fine.

Why not?

.'
Firstly, 'Good to know' not 'Good to now'. And you're welcome.

Did i really say that?

[TheStrangest]

@thestrangest said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@sumof1 said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@thestrangest Do you really want to do this here? Fine.

Why not?

.'
Firstly, 'Good to know' not 'Good to now'. And you're welcome.

Did i really say that?

Oh wow i did, ok

[TheStrangest]

If you want to talk about scientists then let's talk about scientists. Do you have any idea how many scientists believe in a (inactive) creator?

Well i can only find trustworthy polls from the states

So in the states

51% of all scientists believe in god, but only 7% of astrophysicists and 13% of biologists according to a 2009 poll i remember

Albert Einstein believed in the God of beauty his reasoning was that "the universe didn't have to be beautiful but it is"

Lol that's taking what he meant really out of context. Einstein was 100% atheist:

Dr Clifford Wilson believed in God and many others that you can look up for yourself

Bitch he's a PhD in medicine, wtf does that have to do with the origins of the universe? I don't care about him because his opinion on the origins of the cosmos doesn't matter just like a guy with a PhD in Gender Studies. Only do Biologist's/Cosmologist's/Astrophysicist's... opinions matter on these topics because THAT'S what they study

But wait, what are scientists trying to achieve in science? It's one thing, A unified theory of everything (Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking dreamt of the day when a unified theory would prevail). Why have a unified theory? This is what Stephen Hawking said : 'To read the mind of God'

Lololololololololololololllllll. Stephen Hawking is also 100% atheist:

That's from his documentary "on grand design"

What he meant by that is to understand the cosmos as if it's a conscience, just like what Einstein said, it's metaphorical.

Here's another comment he made on God : This contrasted with his 2010 book The Great Design, in which he said that the idea of God was "not necessary" to explain the origin of the universe as the laws of physics offer enough of an explanation

Yeah that's true.

That statement that was seen as a change from his previous position on God and the universe as, in an interview with Reuters in 2007, Hawking said “I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science,” conceding that “the laws may have been designed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.” > What? He just said that there IS the need for a God to create the universe itself.

YEAH, that's because the guy he was talking to was an atheist and he didn't want to say that religious people either have to not believe in god or not be interested in science, god MAY have created designed the laws of the universe but we can perfectly explain everything without the concept of god, that isn't a contradiction

Now for this 'Lawrence Krauss' you mentioned (i've never even heard of him). What i'm going to say right now is considered to be a fact, There is NO quantum scientist out there who is better than Hawking

HAWKING IS NOT A QUANTUM SCIENTIST, HE'S AN ASTROPHYSICIST and that doesn't change with his contributions to quantum gravity, his degree is in astrophysics and cosmology and Lawrence Krauss's degree is in Quantum Physics

So the best quantum scientist believes in God

HE IS AN ATHEIST, HE MADE A WHOLE DOCUMENTARY EXPLAINING WHY THERE IS NO GOD AND THE CLIP I SHOWED YOU IS OF HIM IN THAT DOCUMENTARY, here is the documentary:

this is someone who deals with the universe and it's wonders everyday looking for an explanation (Dr. Hawking produced a lot of papers that gave a lot of answers, specifically on a matter (pun intended) that even Einstein failed to decipher, I'm talking about Black Holes. So if he believes in a God, do you?

He doesn't and even if he did i wouldn't, not to even mention that you should GO FUCK YOUUUURRRRSEEEELLLFFFFF for neglecting Lawrence Krauss's contributions to Science. His statements are just as valuable as Stephen Hawking's and it's the same for all peer reviewed research

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory? Where nothing becomes something. tell me where or when in nature does a process take place where something is created out of nothing. There isn't one.

There is very, very solid evidence there was a Big Bang. https://www.schoolsobservatory.org/learn/astro/cosmos/bigbang/bb_evid , There is NO evidence about what caused it. We cannot see back before it. In fact, since spacetime seems to have emerged from it, we have no reason to believe there even WAS time before it. What was before the Big Bang may be a nonsensical question. It may be like asking, "What is north of the North Pole?". Not to mention THAT I FUCKING UPLOADED THIS VIDEO ON YOUTUBE MYSELF:

So you can understand what professor Lawrence Krauss's book talks about, you even have the whole book here:

Now to that picture about 3000 gods, Those 3000 are not gods, all Greek mythological gods are not gods, they are embodiments of characteristics. Gods like Venus they are what the Greeks admired and worshipped, this similar to what Einstein believed he believed in multiple 'characteristics' and claimed them to be his god. Things like victory (nike) they used these terms to 'describe' or attempt to explain what it is by giving it a personality that is why all their gods have human-like features and a human body

No, all those gods are no longer practiced(except by a couple insane people) there are about 4000 religions being practiced today all with their own version of god, and don't even fucking try to explain why your god is somehow more likely to exist than their's because he isn't

'Islam is in no way a good religion' and why is that?
Do I think Islam is a religion of terrorism?
Sure it is we kill for fun, i mean don't you believe all religions to be more or less the same,

No i don't. Islam is significantly more violent than Jainism for example

if you believe Islam to be a religion of terrorism then why aren't other religions like judaism, christianity, buddhism, hinduism religions of terrorism?

I don't believe it to be a religion of terrorism to be exact but i do believe it to be a Sexist, Violent, Homophobic not to even mention it being proslavery. Same goes for Judaism and Christianity but I'm not sure about Hinduism. For Islam this is scripturally and historically true but not all Muslims believe this/follow this ideology (but more Muslims than Christians and Jews do)

is Islam different?

Yeah

Just like any other religion it has a God that the followers ship, so what's your reasoning for saying that?

Unlike other religions there is not as much recognition by muslims who know of the verses i mentioned that they're wrong or a view that they're not meant to be taken literally

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 wow it took me a whole hour to reply to you? Shit

[adios]

You do realize that asking this is illogical if you mean by god an ultimate uncreated being that creates things...
Also, your backdrop says “believe in science” that’s like believing in alternative facts. Science is evidence not a faith and you should never believe it but verify or falsify it depending on your position on the role of the scientific method.
I understand the frustration your question is underlining. Because there is no exact proof of an ultimate creator and then people who believe in one ask you a question similar to what is outside of your system of thought? And expect you to prove their belief for them. Belief is rational and reasonable at times but there is no evidence for it.

[TheStrangest]

@joewindsurf said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

You do realize that asking this is illogical if you mean by god an ultimate uncreated being that creates things...

No, it isn't illogic, it is a question that points out the special pleading fallacy in the religious argument saying that no-one created god

Also, your backdrop says “believe in science” that’s like believing in alternative facts. Science is evidence not a faith and you should never believe it but verify or falsify it depending on your position on the role of the scientific method.

You can disbelieve in the scientific method, that's what the "believe in Science" statement discourages. For example a lot of religious people don't believe in Evolution nor the Big Bang which if we go back in their past far enough, eventually we'll find that they don't because of a lack of understanding and belief in the scientific method. Btw are you suggesting that somehow faith can be used at the same time as alternative fact?

When we use the 2nd meaning(from the definition of faith in the dictionary):strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Do you NEED faith to believe in your religion, as in, can you believe in your religion without faith?

Usually the answer is no

i didn't chose to be an atheist, it happened because i saw no sufficient evidence behind the religious claims, if there was evidence i would believe and of course faith is not a reliable pathway to truth since it can lead you to true and wrong conclusions with incredible inaccuracy so using it is useless

Why use an UNRELIABLE PATHWAY TO TRUTH to believe that something is TRUE. I don't thank that's a good idea

I understand the frustration your question is underlining. Because there is no exact proof of an ultimate creator and then people who believe in one ask you a question similar to what is outside of your system of thought?

Outside my system of thought? I have never heard such a question not do i even know what it means

And expect you to prove their belief for them. Belief is rational and reasonable at times but there is no evidence for it.

I don't see how it can ever be without proof, by the way you're being really vague

[SUmof1]

@thestrangest You’re the one who thinks that he doesn’t believe in God, why would he even mention God when he was being interviewed on the beginning of the universe why would he bring up something so controversial. His claims are a bit contradictory but that i think is because he doesn’t want it to be true. Astrophysicists are scientists so i don’t know why you would separate them. And Stephen Hawking played a very big rolein quantum physics, he’s the one who invented quantum chess. Not to mention he specialized in black holes, which is branched as ‘quantum mechanics’ ‘quantum’ ‘q u a n t u m’ which makes him a quantum scientist, the same way you call someone a mathematician because they use a lot of maths in their work.

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@thestrangest You’re the one who thinks that he doesn’t believe in God

YOU CUNTTTTTT. HE SAID IT HIMSELF YOU RETARD:

Did you not watch the video?

why would he even mention God when he was being interviewed on the beginning of the universe why would he bring up something so controversial

Because the question involved the role of god in the universe, i watched that interview too you know.

His claims are a bit contradictory but that i think is because he doesn’t want it to be true

HIS CLAIMS ARE NOT CONTRADICTORY, what argument can you give for that assertion? And something can't be "a bit" contradictory, it either is or isn't.

Astrophysicists are scientists so i don’t know why you would separate them

Because in science there are different fields and Astrophysics and Quantum Physics are completely different. All scientific contributions are equal and you shouldn't dismiss someone's findings because they're less knowm

And Stephen Hawking played a very big rolein quantum physics

In quantum gravity m8, what Lawrence Krauss's work focusses on is completely different, they work in different fields

he’s the one who invented quantum chess. Not to mention he specialized in black holes, which is branched as ‘quantum mechanics’ ‘quantum’ ‘q u a n t u m’ which makes him a quantum scientist

M8, his degree is in cosmology and astrophysics, the point is that they work on completely different things which are not interconnected

The same way you call someone a mathematician because they use a lot of maths in their work

LOL, that's exactly what you don't do, you call someone by their profession not what they can or can't do, if so then everyone should be called a philosopher

[SUmof1]

@thestrangest Definition of a mathematician: A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models, and change

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@thestrangest Definition of a mathematician: A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models, and change

Every scientist is a mathematician but that's not what you should call them, because mathematicians do more advanced math than scientists

[SUmof1]

@thestrangest Definition of a mathematician: A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models, and change

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 said in If god created the universe, then who created god? (question for theists):

@thestrangest Definition of a mathematician: A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models, and change

Every scientist is a mathematician but that's not what you should call them, because mathematicians do more advanced math than scientists. Scientists focus on different problems than mathematicians, mathematicians these days focus on pure maths and scientists focus on applied maths

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 that's why, to avoid confusion, you should call a scientist with the name of their field

[SUmof1]

@thestrangest Definition of a mathematician: A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models, and change

[TheStrangest]

@sumof1 you do understand that repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make you right