That's a lot of words
It's a a forum. Both in the philosophical sense that it's an place where anyone can voice their ideas, and in the literal and modern sense that TWS provides a full-fledged WYSIWYG+MarkDown
editor that I can take advantage of to express my thoughts in as articulate a manner as I deem fit.
#SorryNotSorry
if I decide to take advantage of the technology at my fingertips and the philosophy of an open forum.
you're a cynic
I'm a skeptic.
I didn't say there is no such thing as telepathy. I pointed out that
- there are numerous+popular depictions of telepathy in the entertainment business, but... that is, quite literally, fiction for the sake of entertainment.
- In order for it to be considered to "
exist in real life?
" (as was asked in the question) "it needs to actually be demonstrated first rather than just assumed in the question
" (as was written in my reply)
- The rest of my reply (which was separated by horizontal line-breaks, because, forum+markdown superpowers ftw) was more generalized advice. I already answered the post content directly, and then more generally I wrote "
ask me to provide evidence ... unless I do, the intellectually honest thing to do is maintain a default of disbelief ... there is absolutely nothing wrong with witholding one's judgement
until belief is rationally justified
"
So there. I'm a skeptic, not a cynic. As soon as I'm given a good reason to change my mind, I will. Until then, I'm well within my prerogative and purview to maintain the default of withholding judgement on the matter.
I'll even go so far as to say this, telepathy may in fact be real and truly exists (I'm not actually conceding that point, but for the moment, just for the sake of argument, I'll grant y'all that hypothetical) but I have no way of knowing that to be the case. Not until it has been objectively, reliably and repeatedly been demonstrated
in such a manner that I and others can actually verify it
rather than just take y'all's word for it, it doesn't warrant my belief.
That is a perfectly prudent position to hold, and you don't get to pretend I'm a prude for holding it; Skepticism is not synonymous with cynicism.
Given shamanic practices and other forms of "magic" have been around for millennia I'm not sure what you're calling baseless
I wasn't referring to shamans at all.
My reply revolved around telepathy and black magic (directly addressing the contents of the post) and then a more generalized response (my 2 cents of advice, for whatever it's worth, about having a healthy dose of skepticism) involved dragons and puppies.
For the record, the "baseless" part was from the dragon example. Here's the full quote, for context: "If I tell you I have a
pet dragon
in my garage
, you shouldn't just take my word for it. Ask me to provide some evidence to back up that
baseless
, empty and vacuous
assertion
(regardless of however confidently I said it) of an otherwise incredibly extraordinary claim."
If you'd like to talk about shamans, I'm perfectly willing - but the same rules apply; hearsay isn't going to convince me, reason and evidence will.
If it helps to give you a preview of my position on that matter, I briefly talk about "magic plants" here but
- I also clearly say that "magic" is just fun placeholder word that stands for "psychedelic"
- I very briefly even broke down what sort of chemical compounds comprised the contents of "magic" mushrooms, ayahuasca, etc (psilocybin, dimethyltryptamine, etc)
I know for a fact that certain shamanic practices and rituals involve those mushrooms and those vines.
I can show how that neurochemistry interacts with our neurotransmitters affecting our neurological functions.
I'm even willing to step away from that small-scale breakdown of what's going on to look at the holistic scope of the experience and describe it as "psychedelic"
I have no problem admitting all of that because it isn't a mere matter of opinion or belief, this is a matter of tried tested and true facts of knowledge. We know there are rituals of preparation before, rituals when it's consumed, and rituals thereafter. We also know what the active ingredients in these plants are and why/how they modulate our synapses the way they do. We've even documented the phenomenology of what takes place -- both from controlled-condition research-studies plus directly from some of the individuals who partake in these shamanic ceremonies as well.
I'll reiterate once again that this is what we'd call "knowledge." Not subject to the subjective opinions of some singular subject, but objectively reliable and independently verifiable -- anyone who has access to the data will be able to come to these same exact conclusions. So "even if" there is a "magical" or "mystical" or "divine" or "supernatural" or whatever-you-want-to-call-it component to those practices, these things still hold true.
Now... if you'd like to share any personal experience you may have had with "shamanic magic" or you'd just like to point me to someone else's testimony of it, I'd be more than willing to hear y'all out. But simply asserting it was "magic" won't make me / others like me automatically believe that's the underlying explanation. I'm not being close-minded when I say that, I'm being as open and transparent and humble and honest as I possibly can be in admitting that YOUR subjective experience couldn't possibly become MY+OUR "knowledge" -- at least, not until y'all share something stronger to back your case.
Ah, and therein lies the rub behind this entire misunderstanding/misrepresentation of my position. It's your case, not mine. And the case has not been adequately made to warrant belief, let alone "justified and true belief a.k.a. knowledge."
I and the rest of the global consensus stand upon a compendium of ever growing info that we the human race have painstakingly gathered over the ages. These things, we know to be true. We're not saying "all else is false" just that they're not known to be true.
Now you or the OP or someone else comes along and says things like "telepaths" and "mind-readers" and "psychics" and "magic" and "mysticism" and "spellcasting" and "supernatural" and so on... fine, it can easily be added it to the library so that the rest of humanity can understand and benefit from this new branch of study rather than just remaining within your group which is only a subset of people within the overarching superset that is "the human race."
Here's how that's gonna work: You claim it's magic? That makes you the claimant. And the "onus" i.e. the "burden of proof" will always rests upon that person making the claim. It's not on the rest of us to "disprove magic doesn't exist / couldn't possibly exist / never has existed and never will exist forevermore amen" or some other convoluted double-negative gymnastic of that sort. Nope, it's simply a matter of "we just don't know what you you're talking about, so please - if you would - make your case 🙏🏼"
Oh, and y'all had better make it a damn compelling case too, cuz if not, this telepathy trick (or any of the other claims quoted above) remains a belief that circulates only within your subset community and not the superset of humanity. Sure, it may be a strongly held belief, fine, but it doesn't change the fact that you haven't met the onus to make your case withstand the investigation of unbiased 3rd-parties outside your community (or indeed, the public scrutiny of the global community at large).
At that point "you" don't get to fingerpoint back at "us" and cry "closeminded" lmao that's just fundamentally misunderstanding the dynamics at play here. YOU are making an EXTRA claim about reality that WE the rest of humanity as of yet do not (that claim may even actually be true, alright? I'm saying that to point out that's very much besides the point. Cuz the core of what I'm addressing here is whether or not belief in that claim is warranted). "Our" only prerogative is to examine any available evidence (which, by the way, is about as open-minded as it gets). We have no obligation to pedestalize whatever you posited to be true simply because y'all say so. Every other piece of knowledge that we hold went through rigorous and stringent criteria of scrutiny before it could be validated. It had to be ontologically valid, epistemologically sound, objectively reliable and independently verifiable, et cetera, et cetera... why then would we lower the bar for "telepathy" ? Or "black magic" ? Or "spellcasting" ? Or "shaman magic" ? Or even my silly example about "dragons" ? My other example about puppies withstands such scrutiny: we know puppies exist. You don't think I want dragons to be real too? Plus the OP said in the question that black magic users could read your present thoughts and peer into your past (and, presumably, the future as well) don't you think I'd want to benefit from something like that as well? And not just for my sake, but to be able to share that ability with the human race en masse? Don't tell me I'm closeminded cuz I don't fall for GOT CGI dragons or people peering into crystal balls while munching on mushrooms. The technology that went into making those entertainment dragons? I "know" is real. The neurochemistry behind those psychedelics that fortune teller took? I "know" is real. But I don't think "dracaris" actually constitute a "magic" word, nor do I think "mind reading / telepaths / psychics" have a strong case going for it either.
But please, do feel free to change my mind about "magic/telepaths/magic telepaths". If it really is real, harboring a healthy dose of rational skepticism isn't going to make a difference. If the truth is true, the truth will out, despite my doubts. And if me investigating with "how" and "why" questions really does throw a wrench in your case (which, by the way, is nothing short of the Socratic Method pure and simple) you don't get to then pin it on me/us and say we're being closeminded. Either make a stronger case or re-evaluate whether what you claim is true is actually fact or fiction masquerading as fact proudly proclaiming itself to be true.
I know a ton of mind-readers fell into the latter category over the course of history... but y'all think you've found the exception to that rule? By all means, make your case -- but the onus has and still does rest upon you #SorryNotSorry
I'm not gonna argue the existence of anything,
In other words... you're just gonna assert the "millenia of magic" without backing it up?
Alright, that's perfectly fine, it's entirely your call.
But then, I have no reason to believe the "magic" part.
And if you say I'm close-minded for not automatically accepting it without question, I'll point out (once again) that it was merely asserted in an emphatic voice, you didn't actually support your case with corroborating evidence.
Wanna spin on that merry-go-round some more? Cuz my invitation still stands, I'm willing to talk about mind-readers, magic, whatever (i.e. I'm open to being persuaded, I'm not a cynic) but the criteria remains the same as it does for puppies and virtually everything else we classify as knowledge (i.e. Skeptical Socrates says #SorryNotSorry
)
but it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around,
Sure. But you do realize that the verdict comes down to "guilty" or "not guilty" right? Our courts never try to prove someone is innocent, it only looks at whether or not the prosecution made an adequate case for the defendant's guilt in that case.
Carrying that analogy right tf over to this convo and keeping all lines as parallel as possible:
- "I find telepaths NOT GUILTY of existing"
- i.e. I DO NOT believe telepaths exist.
- Please make your case and know that the strictest of stringent standards will be used to see if your case stands up to skeptical scrutiny and investigation.
- My only prerogative is to examine the evidence presented and ascertain "guilt" / determine "existence".
- At no point am I obligated to make my own case for "innocence" / disprove telepathy. I don't have to go down the rabbit hole of "proving a negative" nor am I interested in doing so
- The claimant makes their case to the best of their ability, and
- I maintain the default position of "not guilty" until and unless the case for "guilt" has been adequately and satisfactorily demonstrated
- I maintain the default position of "I do not believe" or "I am not convinced" or "I do not accept" until and unless the case for "existence" has been demonstrated
Again, and I hate having to repeat myself, but just to be suuuuper crystal clear about this: At no point do I have to (nor want to) make my own case during the court proceedings / claim the contrapositive assertion that "telepaths cannot possibly ever exist forevermore, amen!". Our courts don't work on that principle, nor do I. It's more prudent to address the sticking point of the issue, i.e. "guilt" / "existence".
And since our courts / I only address that one prong of the issue, the default position to hold until a change of mind becomes warranted is "not guilty" / "not convinced"
so better to have an open mind than a default denial of anything you can't comprehend.
I'm open to adjusting my views ...but based on the merit of any new evidence I can examine.
Because "open minded" does not mean "automatically be accepting of everything, without question". At that point it shifts from "being open" to something more along the lines of "credulous" or even "gullible" to anything that get's peddled your way.
So, yes, I'd say holding a default of dis-belief or un-belief or non-belief in unverifiable claims until belief is sufficiently and necessarily warranted is a generally prudent approach.
I mean, I'm not a robot, I'm human, so I'll admit that in day to day life I make exceptions to this rule. For example, trust is generally earned, but I'm perfectly willing to grant trust tentatively
to someone I've just met. Or in my earlier example about owning a puppy, even if I don't ask for some form of evidence first like seeing a selfie of you with your dog, I'm willing to just take your word for it
...but these sorts of decisions I make are really just in the name of convenience and the practicality of not overcomplicating daily interactions more than anything else. Coming back to the principle of the matter, the fact remains it IS much more prudent to let people earn your trust. It IS true that without some sort of proof that you own a dog I can't actually know that you do, I'm just willing to accept it based on how well I trust you / conversational convenience / etc.
Anyway, I think I made a strong case for why the default of withholding judgement makes the most sense in the "courtroom / guilt verdict" analogy. If you still think I'm wrong about this and I should, by default, believe anything/everything I'm told instead of believing only when it is warranted, feel free to change my mind. I think the very fact that you CAN change my mind shows that I'm open minded, plus I think the approach you're advocating for it "too" open and borders on "credulity" without the critical component of skeptical discernment... but please, feel free to make your case if you really think I'm the one who has it "unreasonable" or "backwards" here.
That just leads to mental stagnation.
Speak for yourself lol the global consensus of knowledge and understanding via scientific progress continues to march ahead strong