@harlanbean yeah exactly bro I felt the same way
To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?
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I know our society laughs about people who believe in angels, and thinks everybody who does so is irrational. But for something to be irrational, you need a rational reason to exclude the idea. And so far nobody has been able to give me a single rational reason. Most said that believing what the bible says is irrational. Now that's a strange reason to hear from a christian :joy:. And every rational thinker will realize it's not a rational reason at all, it's just a statement void of any logical conclusion.
Now don't get me wrong here, all you non-christians out there. If you do not believe in God, then of course it would be completely irrational to believe in angels! So every reason to not believe in angels, that can be applied to God just as well, is obviously not an answer to this question...
And also please forgive the choice of category "Science & Philosophy"... The category "Religion" which would obviously be the right choice for this question, is not available :shrug:
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I'm not a Christian, but can I still answer?
One of the great things about Christianity is that it deals in absolutes: the philosophy behind Jesus is that he's the only guiding factor a person's life needs. Or besides that, if you believe in a omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God, He'd be able to achieve the exact same goals as some angels, but be able to do it all on His Jack Jones, so it'd just be an unnecessary expansion of resources.
:thinking_face: But then again, God's savvy, in't He? His use of angels in the Bible could be because he knows us humans love an ensemble cast. IT'S LIKE AVENGERS INNIT.
Friendly neighborhood gobshyne.
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@Indrid-Cold said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
I'm not a Christian, but can I still answer?
Sure shoot!
One of the great things about Christianity is that it deals in absolutes: the philosophy behind Jesus is that he's the only guiding factor a person's life needs. Or besides that, if you believe in a omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God, He'd be able to achieve the exact same goals as some angels, but be able to do it all on His Jack Jones, so it'd just be an unnecessary expansion of resources.
Well yeah sure. It's not like He'd create more than necessary... I mean... That could not be like Him, I mean... After all He has only created the absolutely necessary amount of 7.5 billion people so far and the absolutely necessary amount of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the known universe... Nah, on the other side of reality He's definitely also only going to do what's absolutely necessary. I mean, us + possibly billions of other intelligent species should be enough to populate heaven, right? Anything else over there would be an unnecessary expansion of resources.
And yeah, I mean why have post-men, if you can deliver the mail yourself :joy:
:thinking_face: But then again, God's savvy, in't He? His use of angels in the Bible could be because he knows us humans love an ensemble cast. IT'S LIKE AVENGERS INNIT.
He's savvy alright :joy:
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@Indrid-Cold I've thought about it for a bit now, and I do agree that the one-ness of God is indeed an argument.
However I do not find it convincing, for it does not just speak against angels, it speaks against all of creation too. Why would God create humans and then ask them to do His Will, can't He do it Himself?
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@pe7erpark3r demons,angels and Gods are basically aliens man.
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@pe7erpark3r seriouly, the existence of God Himself is 100% impossible
But the existence for aliens likely and most likely exist which leads me to think that all pf the religous people talk about paranormal stuff do actually comes some kind of extraterrestrial aliens -
@pe7erpark3r from my understanding, people in the past communicates with aliens that claimed to be demons or angels or even God
And from then on they discussed on about human rights and stuff to make a better world by making religions and cults and hides the real solid truth like human evolution. And even now, cults like illuminati ans freemason existed because of this extraterrestrial alien force. Even, stephen hawking approved that there might be aliens living across the universe:
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@TagIsTag I remember one time, in far far future, I asked some super-evolved aliens if they'd make me a real boy. Just when I thought they were going to touch my heart with space-magic, they just repeatedly poked me in the head for three hours because they didn't understand the concept :frowning:
Friendly neighborhood gobshyne.
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@pe7erpark3r said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
I know our society laughs about people who believe in angels, and thinks everybody who does so is irrational. But for something to be irrational, you need a rational reason to exclude the idea. And so far nobody has been able to give me a single rational reason.
There might have been a time where I thought angels, demons, vampires and werewolves were a thing but that time was way back. What I believe is that people are allowed to have their own opinions (if they're not messing around with someone else's interests) and ridiculing them for that is completely irrational. I mean mind your own business goddammit 🙂. Being a Christian I'm surrounded with people who hold completely opposing opinions for different things and well most of them do believe in angels I suppose.
As for why I don't believe in angels...I guess its because I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY(according to my power of reasoning). The attributes attached with these invisible agents are far from reality. I mean people have different beliefs about their characteristics, ascribing to them incompatible attributes..plus the only basis for belief is the subjective impression that "this is so".. -
@Indrid-Cold well beliefs might have something to do with with this extraterrestrial aliens and stuff
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@Indrid-Cold here is the 1 hour long video on aliens and exorcism so you can watch for the evidence for why people still believe there are extraterrestrial coming from a non-religous rational person :
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@Anastasia-Smith here is a 1 hour long video for why some people still believe in extraterrestrial coming from non-religious rational people who made years of research for the paranormals :
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@TagIsTag I frikkin luv the Paul Eno podcasts. I like those early, early shows that someone's clearly taped off yanqui radio from a distance of ten feet, and it sounds like the audio has been dragged through a hedge.
He's a little overbearing, but then, you're probably allowed to be if you're musing the nature of reality. His idea of extra-dimensional entities supping our psychic pith -- it could be true. How the F am I supposed to know? But it lends the question, what is our psychic pith that it holds such currency? Perhaps the bad guys are totally nihilistic, or bitter, and they want to destroy the universe(s) wholesale, and the best way to do that is buy removing --one by one-- individual conscious units from the gestalt quantum whole. But if that's the case, there's still a role for traditional Christianity. You'd still need a messiah figure to say, 'Look, let's present a united front; I can't explain why because it would sound like scientific gobbledeguk to the layman, but let's just present a united front so we can get through this bloody thing called life.' :wink: <--- (the wink emoji is not part of the quotation).
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@Anastasia-Smith said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
There might have been a time where I thought angels, demons, vampires and werewolves were a thing but that time was way back. What I believe is that people are allowed to have their own opinions (if they're not messing around with someone else's interests) and ridiculing them for that is completely irrational. I mean mind your own business goddammit 🙂. Being a Christian I'm surrounded with people who hold completely opposing opinions for different things and well most of them do believe in angels I suppose.
Well you might be right about why many people don't believe in angels: due to the fact that my family did not pretend that santa or vampires or any of those things were real, angels never fell into the same category, the category of children's stories. But then again, I was an agnostic for quite a few years, so I too did not believe in angels for a long time.
As for why I don't believe in angels...I guess its because I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY(according to my power of reasoning). The attributes attached with these invisible agents are far from reality. I mean people have different beliefs about their characteristics, ascribing to them incompatible attributes..plus the only basis for belief is the subjective impression that "this is so"..
The basis for the christian belief in angels is – not surprisingly – the accounts of the bible. I mean ofc people, especially in the esoteric world, have created quite the mess of beliefs about them, like certain angels bringing wealth and what not.
The biblic accounts show quite the different image. Actually they show two kinds of images.
All angels that appear in stories, like the three men visiting Abraham, or Rafael traveling with Tobit's son, just as well as the angels in the ghospels or the acts appear simply as young men. In the ghospels they wear strangely white clothes. No wings, no nothing. The only thing that "outs" them as angels, is the fact that they just appear and vanish as they wish, and that they are always in the right places. And the fact, that whoever meets them is shocked and realizes that something outworldly has happened, even Mary.
All angels that appear in visions (Daniel, Apocalypse), tend to have wings, not only two but more, and they sometimes look like men, sometimes like strange creatures. And God sends them to do things, which they then do. Period. No more attributes than that are given.
And then guardian angels: we believe in guardian angels because of the one simple phrase of Jesus which he said about children: "that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 18:10).
Now I personally think you have a big problem, if you are christian and do not take the accounts of the bible seriously – at least the ghospels. And by seriously I do not mean to think that they are complete or perfectly transmitted, but are collections of stories that really happened somewhat as they were written. And this clearly includes angels talking to people.
It is quite simple to see: If you say angels did not talk to people, you are applying your personal criterium (haven't seen any), and use that to filter the bible. Then you might also apply another criterium, like miracles do not happen (haven't seen any), ergo Jesus did not do any miracles. Then demons disappear too ofc. And there you are believing 20% of what's written in the bible. Yup, Jesus drove out quite a bit of demons and talked about hell a lot. And then maybe not believe in Jesus having been resurrected bodily but only spiritually and there you have it:
I mean, who takes a book, says 90% of what's written in there is not true, only those 10% I selected for my own set of reasons, cannot be called anything but irrational. And the rest, you do not take as it is written, but require complicated theological theories to imply something else. I mean who would believe such a story?
IMHO, there are only two rational standpoints toward the things that are written in the bible: agnosticism (not believing anything that's written), and actually believing that the accounts of the ghospel and the acts have actually happened.
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@pe7erpark3r said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
@Anastasia-Smith said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
Now I personally think you have a big problem, if you are christian and do not take the accounts of the bible seriously – at least the ghospels. And by seriously I do not mean to think that they are complete or perfectly transmitted, but are collections of stories that really happened somewhat as they were written. And this clearly includes angels talking to people.
Well many people at the church share your views. They see me as a disappointment for not believing in what they want me to.😂 You see the whole aspect of Christianity most of the time is to accept things that are written down in the Bible...I mean what I'm trying to say is that the subjective impression of "this is so" doesn't appeal to me.
I mean, who takes a book, says 90% of what's written in there is not true, only those 10% I selected for my own set of reasons, cannot be called anything but irrational. And the rest, you do not take as it is written, but require complicated theological theories to imply something else. I mean who would believe such a story?
Agreed. As I've mentioned earlier opinions are something everyone has and well they're obviously quite personal and aren't always supposed to be practical. Any person's views on something are dependent on so many factors such as experience, society, past etc...and believe me they don't always get down to the nitty gritty. What I'm trying to say IMHO is that I still don't care about the 90% thingy😂 (again no offence just letting you know my "opinion")
IMHO, there are only two rational standpoints toward the things that are written in the bible: agnosticism (not believing anything that's written), and actually believing that the accounts of the ghospel and the acts have actually happened.
A Paradox I say!😗
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@Anastasia-Smith said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
Now I personally think you have a big problem, if you are christian and do not take the accounts of the bible seriously – at least the ghospels. And by seriously I do not mean to think that they are complete or perfectly transmitted, but are collections of stories that really happened somewhat as they were written. And this clearly includes angels talking to people.
Well many people at the church share your views. They see me as a disappointment for not believing in what they want me to.😂 You see the whole aspect of Christianity most of the time is to accept things that are written down in the Bible...I mean what I'm trying to say is that the subjective impression of "this is so" doesn't appeal to me.
Yeah, I do understand that. I also need a reason for everything I believe in. "This is so", also does not appeal to me.
I mean, who takes a book, says 90% of what's written in there is not true, only those 10% I selected for my own set of reasons, cannot be called anything but irrational. And the rest, you do not take as it is written, but require complicated theological theories to imply something else. I mean who would believe such a story?
Agreed. As I've mentioned earlier opinions are something everyone has and well they're obviously quite personal and aren't always supposed to be practical. Any person's views on something are dependent on so many factors such as experience, society, past etc...and believe me they don't always get down to the nitty gritty. What I'm trying to say IMHO is that I still don't care about the 90% thingy😂 (again no offence just letting you know my "opinion")
Nah, opinions are fine... Everybody has lots of opinions about different things, we cannot study everything :shrug:. But there are important topics on which I must admit, I do want to get people to think, and to get down, and really understand what they believe in.
For example take this one, the church (at least the catholic church's teachings) are deeply thought through, argumented out over centuries. Every heresy and every doctrine has been vehemently and smartly debated by people. There are good reasons for each and every teaching, books are filled with them.
While the doubtful believers (paradoxical indeed), those that only take a percentage of the bible to be true, they all come to different conclusions. One scholar takes this set of sayings to be actually from Jesus, the next scholar says that set is real. That's the very definition of subjective...
While the church's teachings are kind of the opposite of subjective, they are thought and argued through over centuries, and yeah, so is the claim of objectivity they have. It's just that many members of the church, those that are disappointed in you prolly, are not actually aware of those reasons, they just know the end state, and try to convince you that "this is so".
IMHO, there are only two rational standpoints toward the things that are written in the bible: agnosticism (not believing anything that's written), and actually believing that the accounts of the ghospel and the acts have actually happened.
A Paradox I say!😗
Are you the paradox? Am I the paradox? Isn't it all quite paradoxical?
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@pe7erpark3r said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
@Anastasia-Smith said in To the christians here: Do you know a rational reason not to believe in angels?:
Nah, opinions are fine... Everybody has lots of opinions about different things, we cannot study everything :shrug:. But there are important topics on which I must admit, I do want to get people to think, and to get down, and really understand what they believe in.
I agree with you. I mean people just blindly follow and believe in things that might not be true..And when you ask them the reason as to why they think so they'll just randomly utter some gibberish stuff without getting into the nitty gritty and understanding the whole concept. Such a small life to discover so many things... people HOW TF ARE YOU NOT CURIOUS?
For example take this one, the church (at least the catholic church's teachings) are deeply thought through, argumented out over centuries. Every heresy and every doctrine has been vehemently and smartly debated by people. There are good reasons for each and every teaching, books are filled with them.
Again I agree with you on this point. Even though I do not believe in most of the subjective things but undoubtedly I agree with things being there for some incoherent reason.
While the church's teachings are kind of the opposite of subjective, they are thought and argued through over centuries, and yeah, so is the claim of objectivity they have. It's just that many members of the church, those that are disappointed in you prolly, are not actually aware of those reasons, they just know the end state, and try to convince you that "this is so".
I'm letting them see this. Dear God, bless them with the virtue of cognizance!
IMHO, there are only two rational standpoints toward the things that are written in the bible: agnosticism (not believing anything that's written), and actually believing that the accounts of the ghospel and the acts have actually happened.
A Paradox I say!😗
Are you the paradox? Am I the paradox? Isn't it all quite paradoxical?
And I thought I was the only one....😲
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@pe7erpark3r I am a Catholic, and I do not know of a rational reason not to believe in angels. According to my understanding of the holy book, they exist and they are here to guide us on our path towards God.
For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; - Luke 4:10
Anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet doesn't believe in the existence of angels must be either confused or an iconoclast.
