Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Gravity is natural law
    It could all just be the result of "accidents" exploited by the relentless regularities of nature.

    The point is the regularities. Everything happens for a reason. Evolution happens because certain traits favor survival. There is a reason to why everything works the way it does. There is a reason for why gravity is as strong as it is (scientists traced this back to the conditions in the big bang). There is a reason for why there is gravity. There is a reason for everything in nature.

    Benedict spinoza in the 17th century, identified God and nature, arguing that scientific research was the true path of theology. For this heresy he was persecuted. There is a troubling Janus-faced quality to Spinozas heretical vision of Deus sive Natura: in proposing his scientific simplification, was he personifying nature or depersonalising god ?

    I cannot answer this question for I do not know Spinoza well enough. But he clearly was wrong about claiming that scientific research could lead you to God 🤷

    Darwins more generative vision provides the structure in which we can see the intelligence of Mother nature (or is it merely apparent intelligence? ) as a non-miraculous and non-mysterious --and hence all more wonderful-- feature of this self-creating thing.

    There is a big difference between developing (which is what nature does) and creating itself (which is nothing that has ever been observed in nature).

    Should Spinoza be counted as an atheist or a pantheist ? He saw the glory of nature and then saw a way of eliminating the middle-man.

    Since he thought he could arrive at God, he was certainly not an atheist. But again, I don't know him well enough to tell you wether he was a pantheist or believed in a God that was just a part of nature...

    I know science has already disproved old 5 elements
    Nature is more than those five elements

    Good we agree on this.

    You had misread it. I wrote transcendent immorality. A comma was not between both words
    Nature is dead to human values
    For an example sun lights on everyone either he is sinful or good

    Oh, okay, yeah, I misread that. I'd still say that the immorality of nature is not transcendent though. Nature is just simply non-moral (I agree with you on this).

    Personal experiences are vary to each-other. They are not reliable
    For an example- an eastern philosopher Gautama Buddha got liberation in the age of 35. He shared his personal experience to people without believing in God and disproving fatalism. He believed in free will and in making our own efforts

    I was just saying that Aquinas did agree in the end with this whole argument about the attributes of God being "like straw" (pointless), because of his experience. I wasn't argueing wether his experience was real or not.

    I was comparing five elements with one-another
    Other liquids are not elements

    Water is not an element either 😏

    Air is not liquid
    Fire is that part of Nature that transforms one state of matter into another. For example, fire transforms the solid state of water (ice) into liquid water and then into its gaseous state (steam)

    Agreed.


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    @petrapark3r I think we can only achieve the truth in time. Science is still in its infancy. We have not yet explored the vast universe.

    If Darwin's theory of evolution is true, then we are not alone in this universe.
    Actually, we should storm Area 51 on September to know whether aliens exist.

    Meanwhile, I believe that while science can not yet answer the profundities of life and its precise origin, we should believe the notion of having a supreme being that created us.


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    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Gravity is natural law
    It could all just be the result of "accidents" exploited by the relentless regularities of nature.

    The point is the regularities. Everything happens for a reason. Evolution happens because certain traits favor survival. There is a reason to why everything works the way it does.

    Where is cause there is effect
    Where is not cause there is not effect
    This is an inference and it is not as direct as perception which I brought up earlier.
    An inference may be true or not. Even though it can have more probabilities

    There is a reason for why gravity is as strong as it is (scientists traced this back to the conditions in the big bang). There is a reason for why there is gravity. There is a reason for everything in nature.

    Good one
    Law of gravity was in Bigbang
    You cannot create or destroy matter or energy in a lab like those 5 old elements, this is what first law of thermodynamics says
    My perception is clearly agree with this physical or natural law
    Some scientists still believe Law of thermodynamics would not come in bigbang theory and just because it addresses the evolution of Universe, not creation.
    Source- https://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang.html

    Thus this debate ends here
    World is clearly rational but God is irrational



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Gravity is natural law
    It could all just be the result of "accidents" exploited by the relentless regularities of nature.

    The point is the regularities. Everything happens for a reason. Evolution happens because certain traits favor survival. There is a reason to why everything works the way it does.

    Where is cause there is effect
    Where is not cause there is not effect
    This is an inference and it is not as direct as perception which I brought up earlier.
    An inference may be true or not. Even though it can have more probabilities

    True. And in the quantum world there seems to effect without cause. However we don't understand the quantum world yet. But even if there were effects without causes, the effects are regular. Not just anything happens. Something specific happens all the time. There is a reason to why it happens, even if there might be no cause.

    There is a reason for why gravity is as strong as it is (scientists traced this back to the conditions in the big bang). There is a reason for why there is gravity. There is a reason for everything in nature.

    Good one
    Law of gravity was in Bigbang
    You cannot create or destroy matter or energy in a lab like those 5 old elements, this is what first law of thermodynamics says
    My perception is clearly agree with this physical or natural law

    Agreed.

    Some scientists still believe Law of thermodynamics would not come in bigbang theory and just because it address the evolution of Universe, not creation.
    Source- https://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang.html

    Interesting article!



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Atheism has two definitions

    There is no god, this definition is not based on faith. Will you call Bertrand Russell's atheism was based on his faith ? Apparently his all counterarguments for five proofs for god's existence were logical and valid.

    The following are his arguments. (https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/why-bertrand-russell-was-not-a-christian.)

    The first cause argument

    This argument is simple; it maintains that since everything must have a cause, there must be a first cause to start everything else. This first cause is God and is exempted from needing a cause itself. Russell points out that if we can decide that one thing doesn’t need a cause, we have no reason not to say the world itself wasn’t the thing without a cause.

    This one is true. But it does not disprove God. It just states that the world could also be without reason. As I tried to show however this gives the world some irrational properties. Still Russels argument holds true.

    The natural law argument:
    This one centers on the idea that the laws of physics needed to be set. It then assumes that the being who determined them was God. Russell finds this one to be outdated given advances in physics since the days of Newton, particularly in quantum mechanics. Since atomic physics is more statistical than classical, Russell contends that it seems odd to claim that an intelligence is involved in physics. Saying:
    “There is, as we all know, a law that if you throw dice you will get double sixes only about once in thirty-six times, and we do not regard that as evidence that the fall of the dice is regulated by design.”
    As with dice rolls, so with reality, he argues.

    This can be countered by the fact, that even though things happen without a cause they don't happen without a reason. It's the same kind of thing that happens over and over again: quantum particles appear out of nothing, with an opposite charge / opposite spin. It is a zero-sum game, but it is a regular one.

    The argument from design:

    This perennial favorite argues that lifeforms are so well suited to their environments that a designer must have been involved. Russell dismisses this as absurd. He not only notes that Darwin explains the observed facts better through evolutionary theory but also points out how terrible some of the design choices are if they were, in fact, choices. He asks the audience:

    “Do you think that, if you were given millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”

    He shouldn't have used people for his argument there, since theists claim that people have free choice, and that therefore evil cannot be blamed on God.

    But he is right about the physical world not being perfect. This is a good argument. But you still have the choice of finding it truly convincing, since you cannot claim to know why God might have made the world in this way.

    After looking at a few others, he concludes that the arguments for the existence of a God are all lacking in rigor. Since Russell, famously, held that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim, the failure of these proofs leaves him with no reason to assume God’s existence.

    This one is the actual crux, and its not even a bad one: "Since you claim that there is God and you cannot prove his existence, I have no reason to believe you." Thus it is not unfair to call not believing an God a rational choice.

    However it is also true, that God is not disprovable, and that there are questions that must forever remain unanswered about the origin of the universe (and other things). So it is not unfair either to call not believing in God a form of faith.

    Lack of belief in god. Yes it is based on faith. This definition is psychological state of mind

    All kinds of convictions have a psychological aspect. Logic itself is based on improvable axioms. So I'd say you are both right.


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    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Atheism has two definitions

    There is no god, this definition is not based on faith. Will you call Bertrand Russell's atheism was based on his faith ? Apparently his all counterarguments for five proofs for god's existence were logical and valid.

    The following are his arguments. (https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/why-bertrand-russell-was-not-a-christian.)

    The first cause argument

    This argument is simple; it maintains that since everything must have a cause, there must be a first cause to start everything else. This first cause is God and is exempted from needing a cause itself. Russell points out that if we can decide that one thing doesn’t need a cause, we have no reason not to say the world itself wasn’t the thing without a cause.

    This one is true. But it does not disprove God. It just states that the world could also be without reason. As I tried to show however this gives the world some irrational properties. Still Russels argument holds true.

    You misinterpreted him about disproving the God or you did not read about this argument.
    In his own words, ''My father taught me that the question 'Who made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.''

    He clearly wrote the fallacy of first cause. As I have said, God II will make God I and God III will make God II and so on. God too should have a cause So, fallacy is itself in this argument

    The natural law argument:
    This one centers on the idea that the laws of physics needed to be set. It then assumes that the being who determined them was God. Russell finds this one to be outdated given advances in physics since the days of Newton, particularly in quantum mechanics. Since atomic physics is more statistical than classical, Russell contends that it seems odd to claim that an intelligence is involved in physics. Saying:
    “There is, as we all know, a law that if you throw dice you will get double sixes only about once in thirty-six times, and we do not regard that as evidence that the fall of the dice is regulated by design.”
    As with dice rolls, so with reality, he argues.

    This can be countered by the fact, that even though things happen without a cause they don't happen without a reason. It's the same kind of thing that happens over and over again: quantum particles appear out of nothing, with an opposite charge / opposite spin. It is a zero-sum game, but it is a regular one.

    In his own words, ''natural laws are a description of how things do in fact behave, and being a mere description of what they in fact do, you cannot argue that there must be somebody who told them to do that, because even supposing that there were, you are then faced with the question "Why did God issue just those natural laws
    and no others?" If you say that he did it simply from his own good pleasure, and without any reason, you then find that there is something which is not subject to law, and so your train of natural law is interrupted. If you say, as more orthodox theologians do, that in all the laws which God issues he had a reason for giving those laws rather than others -- the reason, of course, being to create the best universe, although you would never think it to look at it -- if there were a reason for the laws which God gave, then God himself was subject to law, and therefore you do not get any advantage by introducing God as an intermediary. You really have a law outside and anterior to the divine edicts, and God does not serve your purpose, because he is not the ultimate lawgiver. In short, this whole argument about natural law no longer has anything like the strength that it used to have.

    He was talking about probability of double sixes for designer which is 1/36.

    As we have seen an inference is not direct like perception and natural laws are self-caused

    The argument from design:

    This perennial favorite argues that lifeforms are so well suited to their environments that a designer must have been involved. Russell dismisses this as absurd. He not only notes that Darwin explains the observed facts better through evolutionary theory but also points out how terrible some of the design choices are if they were, in fact, choices. He asks the audience:

    “Do you think that, if you were given millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”

    He shouldn't have used people for his argument there, since theists claim that people have free choice, and that therefore evil cannot be blamed on God.

    And free will is against man is made in the image of god verse. Do not forget that

    But he is right about the physical world not being perfect. This is a good argument. But you still have the choice of finding it truly convincing, since you cannot claim to know why God might have made the world in this way.

    After looking at a few others, he concludes that the arguments for the existence of a God are all lacking in rigor. Since Russell, famously, held that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim, the failure of these proofs leaves him with no reason to assume God’s existence.

    This one is the actual crux, and its not even a bad one: "Since you claim that there is God and you cannot prove his existence, I have no reason to believe you." Thus it is not unfair to call not believing an God a rational choice.

    In his own words, ''Here we find in this world a great deal of injustice, and so far as that goes that is a reason for supposing that justice does not rule in the world; and therefore so far as it goes it affords a moral argument against deity and not in favor of one.''
    He was talking about the faith of theism. How they consider God as a justice of the world without even any weak argument.

    However it is also true, that God is not disprovable,

    God is disprovable because first cause argument is defective

    and that there are questions that must forever remain unanswered about the origin of the universe (and other things). So it is not unfair either to call not believing in God a form of faith.

    I gave you some links for agnosticism atheism. Check the link again. You cannot say former definition is based on faith
    Also whatever source are you reading from, is not reliable and it consists of some uncomprehending arguments
    http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Russell,Bertrand/Religion/Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a Christian.pdf
    Check this out. It is pdf of his essay 'why I'm not a Christian'

    Lack of belief in god. Yes it is based on faith. This definition is based on psychological state of mind

    All kinds of convictions have a psychological aspect.

    A coin is tossed
    2 results may come out - head or tail
    Elaborate how it is a psychological aspect.

    Logic itself is based on improvable axioms. So I'd say you are both right.



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Atheism has two definitions

    There is no god, this definition is not based on faith. Will you call Bertrand Russell's atheism was based on his faith ? Apparently his all counterarguments for five proofs for god's existence were logical and valid.

    The following are his arguments. (https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/why-bertrand-russell-was-not-a-christian.)

    The first cause argument

    This argument is simple; it maintains that since everything must have a cause, there must be a first cause to start everything else. This first cause is God and is exempted from needing a cause itself. Russell points out that if we can decide that one thing doesn’t need a cause, we have no reason not to say the world itself wasn’t the thing without a cause.

    This one is true. But it does not disprove God. It just states that the world could also be without reason. As I tried to show however this gives the world some irrational properties. Still Russels argument holds true.

    You misinterpreted him about disproving the God or you did not read about this argument.
    In his own words, ''My father taught me that the question 'Who made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.''

    He clearly wrote the fallacy of first cause. As I have said, God II will make God I and God III will make God II and so on. God too should have a cause So, fallacy is itself in this argument

    I find the part of the argument I copied from that website is less flawed.

    Why should God need a cause, when nature does not need a cause?

    In other words: you have to excempt something from having a cause, wether that is God or nature.

    The natural law argument:
    This one centers on the idea that the laws of physics needed to be set. It then assumes that the being who determined them was God. Russell finds this one to be outdated given advances in physics since the days of Newton, particularly in quantum mechanics. Since atomic physics is more statistical than classical, Russell contends that it seems odd to claim that an intelligence is involved in physics. Saying:
    “There is, as we all know, a law that if you throw dice you will get double sixes only about once in thirty-six times, and we do not regard that as evidence that the fall of the dice is regulated by design.”
    As with dice rolls, so with reality, he argues.

    This can be countered by the fact, that even though things happen without a cause they don't happen without a reason. It's the same kind of thing that happens over and over again: quantum particles appear out of nothing, with an opposite charge / opposite spin. It is a zero-sum game, but it is a regular one.

    In his own words, ''natural laws are a description of how things do in fact behave, and being a mere description of what they in fact do, you cannot argue that there must be somebody who told them to do that, because even supposing that there were, you are then faced with the question "Why did God issue just those natural laws
    and no others?" If you say that he did it simply from his own good pleasure, and without any reason, you then find that there is something which is not subject to law, and so your train of natural law is interrupted. If you say, as more orthodox theologians do, that in all the laws which God issues he had a reason for giving those laws rather than others -- the reason, of course, being to create the best universe, although you would never think it to look at it -- if there were a reason for the laws which God gave, then God himself was subject to law, and therefore you do not get any advantage by introducing God as an intermediary. You really have a law outside and anterior to the divine edicts, and God does not serve your purpose, because he is not the ultimate lawgiver. In short, this whole argument about natural law no longer has anything like the strength that it used to have.

    He was talking about probability of double sixes for designer which is 1/36.

    As we have seen an inference is not direct like perception and natural laws are self-caused

    Natural laws are not self-caused (gravity does not cause gravity, it causes things to fall down) and thus you cannot have shown that they are self-caused.

    Asking yourself why God has put certain laws in place is nonsense, since (if He exists) you cannot possibly understand God's reasoning.

    The version of the argument I copied from the website is thus less flawed, since it simply states that the fact that physics itself could be random, one does not need God. That would would be true, if physics was truly random. But the scientific truth is: we don't know if it is. (By this I mean, we simply don't know [yet] if the laws of physics are the way the are in our universe because of chance).

    The argument from design:

    This perennial favorite argues that lifeforms are so well suited to their environments that a designer must have been involved. Russell dismisses this as absurd. He not only notes that Darwin explains the observed facts better through evolutionary theory but also points out how terrible some of the design choices are if they were, in fact, choices. He asks the audience:

    “Do you think that, if you were given millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”

    He shouldn't have used people for his argument there, since theists claim that people have free choice, and that therefore evil cannot be blamed on God.

    And free will is against man is made in the image of god verse. Do not forget that

    Why would free will be against the idea of humans being made in the image of God? God – if He exists – has ultimate freedom, He just simply is the definition of Good Himself. We obviously don't have ultimate freedom, like an image could never be the same as the original, but free will, to decide between doing good and doing bad, could indeed be called an image of the ultimate freedom.

    But he is right about the physical world not being perfect. This is a good argument. But you still have the choice of finding it truly convincing, since you cannot claim to know why God might have made the world in this way.

    After looking at a few others, he concludes that the arguments for the existence of a God are all lacking in rigor. Since Russell, famously, held that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim, the failure of these proofs leaves him with no reason to assume God’s existence.

    This one is the actual crux, and its not even a bad one: "Since you claim that there is God and you cannot prove his existence, I have no reason to believe you." Thus it is not unfair to call not believing an God a rational choice.

    In his own words, ''Here we find in this world a great deal of injustice, and so far as that goes that is a reason for supposing that justice does not rule in the world; and therefore so far as it goes it affords a moral argument against deity and not in favor of one.''
    He was talking about the faith of theism. How they consider God as a justice of the world without even any weak argument.

    This is a "new" argument, that wasn't on my list. The argument makes sense. However it requires you again to reason about God's reasoning, which – in case He exists – is not something that we could possibly do and arrive at the truth...

    However it is also true, that God is not disprovable,

    God is disprovable because first cause argument is defective

    As shown above, you have to excempt something from the first-cause argument, wether that is God or nature. And since you have to do this you cannot say that the argument is flawed "because God must be caused".

    And even if you had shown that the problem with the first-cause argument was in fact conclusive: proving an argument wrong, does not prove its result wrong.

    and that there are questions that must forever remain unanswered about the origin of the universe (and other things). So it is not unfair either to call not believing in God a form of faith.

    I gave you some links for agnosticism atheism. Check the link again. You cannot say former definition is based on faith
    Also whatever source are you reading from, is not reliable and it consists of some uncomprehending arguments

    Russels notion is, that since there is no proof of God, it is rational to assume that God is not. This argument is indeed rational.

    Since assuming that God does not exist requires you to excempt nature from the first-cause argument (it puts nature in the place of God, it does not solve the problem) you are presented with a question that you cannot solve. Thus assuming that God does not exist requires you to be at least a bit irrational about how you think of nature, as I have shown in the topic.

    It is also true, that since there is no disproof of God, and quite a bit of evidence of things He does (however inconclusive), it is also rational to assume that God is.

    So I would say it is fair to call atheism a belief, just as it is fair to call not believing in God rational.

    These are the arguments in their entirety (including the first post = the topic itself). No further source needed.

    http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Russell,Bertrand/Religion/Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a Christian.pdf
    Check this out. It is pdf of his essay 'why I'm not a Christian'

    This is a genius lecture about Russels reasons for being an atheist no doubt. However a lot of things are a bit dated. For example he calls it very doubtful wether christ was a historic figure. This was written in a time, when a lot of arguments had been presented that made christs historicity doubtful. But we have progressed a lot since then, and many of the arguments have been successfully refuted.

    I can see now, where you have your arguments from. Very interesting read. Don't take these things as facts though. Natural science and science of history have progressed quite a bit since it was written.

    All kinds of convictions have a psychological aspect.

    A coin is tossed
    2 results may come out - head or tail
    Elaborate how it is a psychological aspect.

    "All kinds of" is an idiom. It does not have to mean "all", it usually means "many". This was just a side note of little importance, please forget about it.


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    @pe7erpark3r said in [Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational](/post/252836):
    > @Electrifying-Guy said in [Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational](/post/252573):
    > > @pe7erpark3r said in [Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational](/post/252470):
    > > > @Electrifying-Guy said in [Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational](/post/252331):
    > > > > Atheism has two definitions
    > > > > 
    > > > > There is no god, this definition is not based on faith. Will you call Bertrand Russell's atheism was based on his faith ? Apparently his all counterarguments for five proofs for god's existence were logical and valid.
    > > > 
    > > > The following are his arguments. (https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/why-bertrand-russell-was-not-a-christian.)
    > > > 
    > > > The first cause argument 
    > > > 
    > > > > This argument is simple; it maintains that since everything must have a cause, there must be a first cause to start everything else. This first cause is God and is exempted from needing a cause itself. Russell points out that if we can decide that one thing doesn’t need a cause, we have no reason not to say the world itself wasn’t the thing without a cause.
    > > > 
    > > > This one is true. But it does not disprove God. It just states that the world could also be without reason. As I tried to show however this gives the world some irrational properties. Still Russels argument holds true.
    > > 
    > > 
    > > You misinterpreted him about disproving the God or you did not read about this argument.
    > > In his own words, ''My father taught me that the question 'Who made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.''
    > > 
    > > He clearly wrote the fallacy of first cause. As I have said, God II will make God I and God III will make God II and so on. God too should have a cause So, fallacy is itself in this argument
    > 
    > I find the part of the argument I copied from that website is less flawed.
    > 
    > Why should God _need_ a cause, when nature does _not need_ a cause? 
    > 
    > In other words: you _have to_ excempt _something_ from having a cause, wether that is God or nature.
    > 
    
    
    I agree but we have seen how matter is self-cause whereas God is not
    > > > > The natural law argument: 
    > > > > This one centers on the idea that the laws of physics needed to be set. It then assumes that the being who determined them was God. Russell finds this one to be outdated given advances in physics since the days of Newton, particularly in quantum mechanics. Since atomic physics is more statistical than classical, Russell contends that it seems odd to claim that an intelligence is involved in physics. Saying:
    > > > > “There is, as we all know, a law that if you throw dice you will get double sixes only about once in thirty-six times, and we do not regard that as evidence that the fall of the dice is regulated by design.”
    > > > > As with dice rolls, so with reality, he argues.
    > > > 
    > > 
    > > 
    > > 
    > > > This can be countered by the fact, that even though things happen without a cause they don't happen without a reason. It's the same kind of thing that happens over and over again: quantum particles appear out of nothing, with an opposite charge / opposite spin. It is a zero-sum game, but it is a regular one.
    > > > 
    > > 
    > > 
    > > In his own words, ''natural laws are a description of how things do in fact behave, and being a mere description of what they in fact do, you cannot argue that there must be somebody who told them to do that, because even supposing that there were, you are then faced with the question "Why did God issue just those natural laws
    > > and no others?" If you say that he did it simply from his own good pleasure, and without any reason, you then find that there is something which is not subject to law, and so your train of natural law is interrupted.  If you say, as more orthodox theologians do, that in all the laws which God issues he had a reason for giving those laws rather than others -- the reason, of course, being to create the best universe, although you would never think it to look at it -- if there were a reason for the laws which God gave, then God himself was subject to law, and therefore you do not get any advantage by introducing God as an intermediary.  You really have a law outside and anterior to the divine edicts, and God does not serve your purpose, because he is not the ultimate lawgiver. In short, this whole  argument about natural law no longer has anything like the strength that it used to have.
    > > 
    > > He was talking about probability of double sixes for designer which is 1/36.
    > > 
    > > As we have seen an inference is not direct like perception and natural laws are self-caused 
    > 
    > Natural laws are not self-caused (gravity does not cause gravity, it causes things to fall down) and thus you cannot have shown that they are self-caused.
    > 
    
    
    Did you just forget first law of thermodynamics ?
    Do you really think an imagining entity will cause apple to fall on ground ?
    E.g. I throw a stone and apple falls on ground
    Explain me what causes apple to fall on ground ?
    Also explain me how an imaging entity can create energy ?
    For first (law of gravity) he should have limbs to do that
    For second which is already self cause makes him already irrational
    > Asking yourself why God has put certain laws in place is nonsense, since (if He exists) you cannot possibly understand God's reasoning.
    > 
    
    'You cannot know' is not an argument to believe in something who is beyond our perception
    
    
    > The version of the argument I copied from the website is thus less flawed, since it simply states that the fact that physics itself could be random, one does not need God. That would would be true, if physics was truly random. But the scientific truth is: we don't know if it is. (By this I mean, we simply don't know [yet] if the laws of physics are the way the are in our universe because of chance).
    > 
    
    A kind of agree
    > > > > The argument from design:
    > > > > 
    > > > > This perennial favorite argues that lifeforms are so well suited to their environments that a designer must have been involved. Russell dismisses this as absurd. He not only notes that Darwin explains the observed facts better through evolutionary theory but also points out how terrible some of the design choices are if they were, in fact, choices. He asks the audience:
    > > > > 
    > > > > “Do you think that, if you were given millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”
    > > > 
    > > > He shouldn't have used people for his argument there, since theists claim that people have free choice, and that therefore evil cannot be blamed on God.
    > > > 
    > > 
    > > And free will is against man is made in the image of god verse. Do not forget that
    > 
    > Why would free will be against the idea of humans being made in the image of God? God – if He exists – has ultimate freedom, He just simply is the definition of Good Himself. We obviously don't have ultimate freedom, like an image could never be the same as the original, but free will, to decide between doing good and doing bad, could indeed be called an image of the ultimate freedom.
    > 
    
    I was reading interpretion of bible from some website, Your interpretation is very different to that one so it is not my mistake :(
    Also, he will send me in hell if I do some sins. I will not do those sins because I'm afraid of going to hell. Isn't it against free will ?
    
    Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
    Then he is not omnipotent
    Is he able, but not willing ?
    Then he is malevolent
    Is he both able and willing ?
    Then whence cometh evil ?
    Is he neither able nor willing ?
    Then why call him God ?
    > > > But he is right about the physical world not being perfect. This is a good argument. But you still have the choice of finding it truly convincing, since you cannot claim to know why God might have made the world in this way.
    > > > 
    > > > > After looking at a few others, he concludes that the arguments for the existence of a God are all lacking in rigor. Since Russell, famously, held that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim, the failure of these proofs leaves him with no reason to assume God’s existence.
    > > > 
    > > > This one is the actual crux, and its not even a bad one: "Since you claim that there is God and you cannot prove his existence, I have no reason to believe you." Thus it is not unfair to call not believing an God a rational choice.
    > 
    > > In his own words, ''Here we find in this world a great deal of injustice, and so far as that goes that is a reason for supposing that justice does not rule in the world; and therefore so far as it goes it affords a moral argument against deity and not in favor of one.''
    > > He was talking about the faith of theism. How they consider God as a justice of the world without even any weak argument.
    > 
    > This is a "new" argument, that wasn't on my list. The argument makes sense. However it requires you again to reason about God's reasoning, which – in case He exists – is not something that we could possibly do and arrive at the truth... 
    > 
    
    > > > > However it is also true, that God is not disprovable,
    > > 
    > > God is disprovable because first cause argument is defective 
    > 
    > As shown above, you have to exempt something from the first-cause argument, whether that is God or nature. And since you _have to do this_ you cannot say that the argument is flawed "because God must be caused". 
    > 
    > And even if you had shown that the problem with the first-cause argument was in fact conclusive: proving an argument wrong, does not prove its result wrong.
    > 
    
    
    When cause aka god itself is doubtful its effect will also be doubtful
    its result will also be doubtful
    Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder? 
    Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter? 
    Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker? 
    If you answered YES for any of the above, give details
    > > > and that there are questions that must forever remain unanswered about the origin of the universe (and other things). So it is not unfair either to call not believing in God a form of faith.
    > > 
    > > I gave you some links for agnosticism atheism. Check the link again. You cannot say former definition is based on faith
    > > Also whatever source are you reading from, is not reliable and it consists of some uncomprehending arguments
    > 
    > Russels notion is, that since there is no proof of God, it is rational to assume that God is not. This argument is indeed rational.
    > 
    > Since assuming that God does not exist requires you to excempt nature from the first-cause argument (it puts nature in the place of God, it does not solve the problem) you are presented with a question that you cannot solve. Thus assuming that God does not exist requires you to be at least a bit irrational about how you think of nature, as I have shown in the topic.
    > 
    
    If i did put nature in the first cause it would be the the most rational argument for disproving the God. Because energy or matter is not created or destroyed by anyone. Nobody could cause it. It would be itself cause .
    > It is also true, that since there is no disproof of God, and quite a bit of evidence of things He does (however inconclusive), it is also rational to assume that God is.
    >
    
    
     
    > So I would say it is fair to call atheism a belief, just as it is fair to call not believing in God rational.
    > 
    > These are the arguments in their entirety (including the first post = the topic itself). No further source needed.
    
    
    
    Whatever you would say will be not a fact. Facts are always different from opinions
    You don't want to read source because you are either lazy or you have just a mindset
    Read both definitions from here https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/
    
    > These are the arguments in their entirety (including the first post = the topic itself). No further source needed.
    > 
    > > http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Russell,Bertrand/Religion/Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Why%20I%20am%20not%20a%20Christian.pdf
    > > Check this out. It is pdf of his essay 'why I'm not a Christian'
    > 
    > This is a genius lecture about Russels reasons for being an atheist no doubt. However a lot of things are a bit dated. For example he calls it very doubtful wether christ was a historic figure. This was written in a time, when a lot of arguments had been presented that made christs historicity doubtful. But we have progressed a lot since then, and many of the arguments have been successfully refuted. 
    > 
    
    > I can see now, where you have your arguments from. Very interesting read. Don't take these things as facts though. Natural science and science of history have progressed quite a bit since it was written.
    > 
    
    My one source was his essay actually. The first cause counterargument in my first post and christ's historical fact were taken from it. Some other sources were my own knowledge and books issued from my city's library. More sources were taken from an Indian materialism school. That materialism school had theory of five elements which was a bit outdated.
    > > > All kinds of convictions have a psychological aspect.
    > > 
    > > A coin is tossed
    > > 2 results may come out - head or tail
    > > Elaborate how it is a psychological aspect.
    > 
    > "All kinds of" is an idiom. It does not have to mean "all", it usually means "many". This was just a side note of little importance, please forget about it.
    
    
    Alright 
    
    In the end I'd describe how atheism is rational and theism is irrational
    Assume you are sitting in a library and it is restricted to go its terrace. You go to that library daily. Once a ceiling fan falls. 
    There might be two probabilities behind this accident-
    1. Law of motion
    2. Someone 
    Until here theism is somehow rational but not more than atheism because if someone caused the accident, he could  born with body. Whereas law of motion was apparently perceived and only some irrational people would think god A.K.A. an imagining entity is beyond this accident (It is ofc ludicrous for us :joy:)
    You would ask who is there ? But nobody replies you. You got a habit of asking daily but still anyone from terrace does not reply. Here you imagine an unseen entity. You pray to your god daily but he never replies you. But you still think he is there. How theism is rational :joy: ?
    Avoiding sensual perceptions and living in imagination is humorous. Just imagine you travel spain to russia after closing your eyes but truth is you are sitting on a chair and typing on a keyboard
    
    This world or nature is eternal because energy or matter is reserved 
    This world or nature is immoral 
    You cannot prove any of god's attribute as we saw in debate earlier because you would say knowing him is impossible. 
    
    
    I have my own arguments to disproving the God and calling theism  irrational. An answer will be appreciable from you.
    1. Religion runs in the family- It is 99% probable that you are follow the religion in your family because that’s what you have been taught right from your birth. You didn’t decide for yourself which is right or which is rational, at least. We all derive the knowledge from our ancestors which has been through the generations but did you know a new born baby has no believe in any religion
    2. Common consent- One of the most common facts of people believing in God is that most people believe in HIM, because when a phenomenon is accepted by majority, it must be true, right ? Let’s compare it to slavery now, which was believed to be acceptable back in the times of Lincoln but now is accepted as a faulty practice
    3. No growth in religion - When we look at the technological advancements, we realize a decade ago, we had no idea of the existence of the things that we are experiencing right now, for eg even the smartphone I’m typing this answer. Talking of the scientific evolution, can we apply the same thing to God ? No. We are stuck in believing facts that have been in circulation for centuries. If God exists, why are we so vague about His presence ?
    4. Morality needs no religion - Most people believe that absence of God and religion would lead to utter chaos leading to immoral acts. But there are enough incidents to prove that Religious people commit immoral acts in the name of God to make their religion look superior. Hypocrisy, eh ?
    5.  Existence of evil - If theists say that God is noble and good, why do they ignore the existence of evil in the world ? If God loves us so dearly, why should He allow evils to exist ? Why should God allow wars and riots that destroy its own creations ?
    6. Inconsistency of religions : Think for yourself. If God exists and He created all men and women equal, why do religions exist which forces people to perceive the same thing so differently? If God existed, wouldn’t He have been bigger ? with more powerful effects on the universe ? You are actually praying to things that we ourselves have built up.
    7. The point where science fails : Gods existence is proved by pointing out phenomenon that science can’t explain and hence they are facilitated by God. And why not ? In ancient Greek, Poseidon was believed to be behind earthquakes but is now a scientific activity. It’s not a very convincing fact that our lack of knowledge about the cosmos be a substitute for the existence of a supernatural force.
    
    Your bike could be an example of child marriage as well. For an example my dad married in the age of 15. My grandfather married in the age of 12. They would insist me to do the child marriage because it is a practice in past and they ancestors did so. I'm against of any faulty social practice so i would deny and I will break the chain. The same logic goes with God and bike.
    God was created with humans' imagination for earning the money. But that doesn't mean a logical man wouldn't break the chain
    


  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    I agree but we have seen how matter is self-cause whereas God is not

    No.

    We only have cited the scientific consensus that is that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed inside the universe. This is not equal to saying matter causes itself, or energy causes itself. Please stop saying that anything in the world causes itself, because that is just not something that has ever been observed or makes any sense rationally.

    The only thing that was observed was that quantum particles seemingly appear without cause. This is not the same as self-cause however.

    Did you just forget first law of thermodynamics ?
    Do you really think an imagining entity will cause apple to fall on ground ?
    E.g. I throw a stone and apple falls on ground
    Explain me what causes apple to fall on ground ?
    Also explain me how an imaging entity can create energy ?
    For first (law of gravity) he should have limbs to do that

    Let me give you a modern answer to an old question. Scientists these days have been wondering very deeply what the universe is at the bottom level. What are quantum particales really? The only thing we really know about them (apart from their existence) are their mathematical and statistical properities.

    The answer that some scientists give is, that on the very lowest level of reality, the physical world is made up of information.

    As you know information is the contents of the mind. Now it is not so hard to imagine anymore how God could have made the world or act in it right? He could simply think it.

    But I really want to end the debate about how God could act in the natural world here, because – if He exists – it really makes no sense to wonder how He does things. This is all just a waste of time wether you argue for or against God...

    For second which is already self cause makes him already irrational

    I think we have said everything that could have been said about the problem of self-cause. I have nothing to add.

    Asking yourself why God has put certain laws in place is nonsense, since (if He exists) you cannot possibly understand God's reasoning.

    'You cannot know' is not an argument to believe in something who is beyond our perception

    I did not say that. It is just an argument against Russels argument, that's all. Not an argument for God's existence.

    I was reading interpretion of bible from some website, Your interpretation is very different to that one so it is not my mistake 😞

    No, it is not your fault. No need to assume, you can simply ask me 😊

    You need to know that basically there is

    • the catholic church, which is the oldest and biggest church with the most followers. I am catholic and I do believe that the Lord will not mislead his church in its teachings. Also the catholic church is the one that tries to integrate reason and science into its teachings the most.
    • the orthodox churches basically share the same teaching, but their method is not as scientific
    • the anglican church who also shares the same teaching, but in recent years has basically left most of its old morality behind
    • and then there are 20.000 protestant denominations, who basically originate from Martin Luther's teachings. They all have their own teachings, and you'll find truth as well as the greatest BS if you read their stuff. Its basically meaningless to even throw yourself in there. You'll never reach the end of the discussions of who's right.

    So in general you can assume that my source for the catholic teachings is the catechism of the catholic church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

    You will also hear from me my own believes (which to the best of my knowledge do not contradict the cathecism anywhere) and my own arguments.

    Also, he will send me in hell if I do some sins. I will not do those sins because I'm afraid of going to hell. Isn't it against free will ?

    • People of all ages who believed in God and believed in hell did still sin and also good. So it does not make a practical difference...
    • You only go to hell if you do not accept God's mercy. Jesus after all came to save us from hell. Its basically also your free choice.

    And last but not least, the catholic teaching about hell is the following: When you die, you see God who is absolute love, peace and joy. You also get to see your own deeds through God's eyes. This is judgement. Then you get His mercy offered to you for the final time. You now have the choice to accept his judgement and his mercy, or say: you have no right to judge me. If you don't accept His mercy, you don't accept Him. This means you will be without Him, which means you will be without love, peace and joy. And being without God, being without anything good (for God is all good) is hell. The love you did not accept burns hotter than you could ever imagine.

    Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
    Then he is not omnipotent
    Is he able, but not willing ?
    Then he is malevolent
    Is he both able and willing ?
    Then whence cometh evil ?
    Is he neither able nor willing ?
    Then why call him God ?

    I cannot give you a rational answer, so you are allowed to say, that the following is no answer at all. But this is the catholic doctrine:

    God's greatest wish for you is that you love Him. There is no love without free will. It would just be meaningless. Thus for free will to be, you must have the choice to do evil. Evil causes suffering. Willingly accepting suffering is to atone for your sins and for the sins of others (to be more correct it is Christ who atones in you). Thus through accepting suffering you can love God and your neighbour. Also, there is no such thing as love without sacrifice.

    As I said this is not a rational answer, but it is the catholic doctrine.



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    When cause aka god itself is doubtful its effect will also be doubtful
    its result will also be doubtful

    We have the effects and the results. It is what we perceive. So we are thinking in the other direction.

    Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder?
    Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter?
    Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker?
    If you answered YES for any of the above, give details

    I don't get where you are going with this. Of course not.

    If i did put nature in the first cause it would be the the most rational argument for disproving the God. Because energy or matter is not created or destroyed by anyone. Nobody could cause it. It would be itself cause .

    That matter or energy does not get created or destroyed is a scientific consensus (not a fact!), and it is limited to this universe only. And it is not rational to say that nature causes itself, for how can anything cause itself? The most rational (though not completely rational) thing you could say, is that nature has no cause and is eternal.

    Whatever you would say will be not a fact. Facts are always different from opinions
    You don't want to read source because you are either lazy or you have just a mindset
    Read both definitions from here https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

    You missunderstood. I did read your sources. I just have no source for my own arguments (the ones I was referring to, for others of my arguments I could give you sources), because 1. I wrote them in their entirety, thus you can think them trough and disprove them and 2. they are my own arguments, so I would only cite myself. Maybe someone else has thought them before me though, I wouldn't know and thus don't claim I'm the first.

    In the end I'd describe how atheism is rational and theism is irrational
    Assume you are sitting in a library and it is restricted to go its terrace. You go to that library daily. Once a ceiling fan falls.
    There might be two probabilities behind this accident-

    1. Law of motion
    2. Someone
      Until here theism is somehow rational but not more than atheism because if someone caused the accident, he could born with body. Whereas law of motion was apparently perceived and only some irrational people would think god A.K.A. an imagining entity is beyond this accident (It is ofc ludicrous for us 😂)
      You would ask who is there ? But nobody replies you. You got a habit of asking daily but still anyone from terrace does not reply. Here you imagine an unseen entity. You pray to your god daily but he never replies you. But you still think he is there. How theism is rational 😂 ?

    Actually He does reply to many, especially in our times (the times of the second pentecoste). Yeah, the imiginative entity is answering. The imaginative entitiy is even making predictions that come true. Like this message here which predicts the world trade center tragedy by exactly 10 years to the day. But of course that might be the collective unconscious or sheer chance. I cannot persuade you to believe, it is your choice 🤷

    Avoiding sensual perceptions and living in imagination is humorous. Just imagine you travel spain to russia after closing your eyes but truth is you are sitting on a chair and typing on a keyboard

    This world or nature is eternal because energy or matter is reserved
    This world or nature is immoral
    You cannot prove any of god's attribute as we saw in debate earlier because you would say knowing him is impossible.

    Yes. Agreed. Knowing Him in a philosophical or rational way is impossible.

    I have my own arguments to disproving the God and calling theism irrational. An answer will be appreciable from you.

    1. Religion runs in the family- It is 99% probable that you are follow the religion in your family because that’s what you have been taught right from your birth. You didn’t decide for yourself which is right or which is rational, at least. We all derive the knowledge from our ancestors which has been through the generations but did you know a new born baby has no believe in any religion

    In fact christianity is the only religion that grows through conversion in our time and age. There are 10.000 babtisms every day in china alone.

    1. Common consent- One of the most common facts of people believing in God is that most people believe in HIM, because when a phenomenon is accepted by majority, it must be true, right ? Let’s compare it to slavery now, which was believed to be acceptable back in the times of Lincoln but now is accepted as a faulty practice

    Agreed.

    1. No growth in religion - When we look at the technological advancements, we realize a decade ago, we had no idea of the existence of the things that we are experiencing right now, for eg even the smartphone I’m typing this answer. Talking of the scientific evolution, can we apply the same thing to God ? No. We are stuck in believing facts that have been in circulation for centuries. If God exists, why are we so vague about His presence ?

    Actually the teachings of the catholic church and especially about morality have been developing. Or lets be more exact: they have gotten more detailed. Lets take slavery: it was never a dogma, that slavery was okay. It was accepted by the church, but it didn't take an official stance. In 1537 Pope Paul III officially condemned the enslavement of indigenous peoples. This was when the Americas slave trade was in full bloom. And today you can find this teaching in the catechism.

    However what the church does of course (since we are talking about God) is to teach eternal (= non-changing) truths. So dogmata never change. But slavery was never a dogma.

    1. Morality needs no religion - Most people believe that absence of God and religion would lead to utter chaos leading to immoral acts. But there are enough incidents to prove that Religious people commit immoral acts in the name of God to make their religion look superior. Hypocrisy, eh ?

    Agreed: morality does not need faith. There are many moral people who do not believe and many believers who are immoral.

    However it is quite easy to show that immoral acts are unchristian. Didn't christ say to love your enemies? So if you don't love your enemy, you are not acting christian. And it does not matter if you act unchristian in the name of Christ. In the eyes of God your deeds are still evil...

    1. Existence of evil - If theists say that God is noble and good, why do they ignore the existence of evil in the world ? If God loves us so dearly, why should He allow evils to exist ? Why should God allow wars and riots that destroy its own creations ?

    See my last post.

    1. Inconsistency of religions : Think for yourself. If God exists and He created all men and women equal, why do religions exist which forces people to perceive the same thing so differently? If God existed, wouldn’t He have been bigger ? with more powerful effects on the universe ? You are actually praying to things that we ourselves have built up.

    Agreed. Many people are praying to things we have built up. Many are praying to false gods. Many are praying to the true God, but they don't know Him very well. There is only one true God and thus Christianity is the only religion that convinces people to join through conversion in this time and age (exceptions proving the rule).

    1. The point where science fails : Gods existence is proved by pointing out phenomenon that science can’t explain and hence they are facilitated by God. And why not ? In ancient Greek, Poseidon was believed to be behind earthquakes but is now a scientific activity. It’s not a very convincing fact that our lack of knowledge about the cosmos be a substitute for the existence of a supernatural force.

    Yes people have pointed to lots of those things. Agreed that is irrational. I however have pointed to something that cannot ever be explained by science, something that has to be irrational (the origin of existence) and as you can see you were not able to convince me. But I think we can stop here. We have both said everything we could have said about the topic.

    Your bike could be an example of child marriage as well. For an example my dad married in the age of 15. My grandfather married in the age of 12. They would insist me to do the child marriage because it is a practice in past and they ancestors did so. I'm against of any faulty social practice so i would deny and I will break the chain. The same logic goes with God and bike.

    This comparison falls so short, that I don't even have words to express it.

    God was created with humans' imagination for earning the money. But that doesn't mean a logical man wouldn't break the chain

    This is not true. People always believed things. Religion is as old as humans. People have wondered what happens after death forever. People exploiting this deep need inside people's heart came after the fact.


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    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    I agree but we have seen how matter is self-cause whereas God is not

    No. We only have cited the scientific consensus that is that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed inside the universe. This is not equal to saying matter causes itself, or energy causes itself. Please stop saying that anything in the world causes itself, because that is just not something that has ever been observed or makes any sense rationally.

    Law of entropy says our universe is expanding faster and faster. Even though energy is finite and our universe is closed it still can spawn more energy space. Positive energy pushes space outward. When space expands, it releases gravitational potential energy which is already stored up. It converts into the intrinsic energy that fills the newly created volume. Expansion of the universe is controlled by law of conserved energy actually.
    Our current universe is expanding and reserved energy is filling the space of it (it is a fact not only scientific consensus). However new energy is not creating but changing its form to do so.
    Energy has no cause at all ......(1)

    Did you just forget first law of thermodynamics ?
    Do you really think an imagining entity will cause apple to fall on ground ?
    E.g. I throw a stone and apple falls on ground
    Explain me what causes apple to fall on ground ?
    Also explain me how an imaging entity can create energy ?
    For first (law of gravity) he should have limbs to do that

    Let me give you a modern answer to a modern question. Scientists these days have been wondering very deeply what the universe is at the bottom level. What are quantum particles really? The only thing we really know about them (apart from their existence) are their mathematical and statistical properties.

    The answer that some scientists give is, that on the very lowest level of reality, the physical world is made up of information.

    Information means knowledge or facts
    Facts means certainty
    Knowledge means things we can learn not we have/had learnt
    We have learnt to worship and pray the God
    We can learn with our free will whatever we want

    As you know information is the contents of the mind. Now it is not so hard to imagine anymore how God could have made the world or act in it right? He could simply think it.

    Are you certain that your house is made by an imagining entity ? Your house is made by a builder not by him. This world doesn't exclude your house
    Hence Information comes into my mind that a manufacturer made a car, a builder built my house and painting made by a painter. This world includes all three. Did you just exclude them from the world ? Have you even seen God create them ? How it is too easy to imagine him ?.....(2)

    Humans produce their baby after sex. It is certain that a baby was expelled from his mom's uterus. (you need an evidence for it, just go to a hospital)
    Hence information comes into my mind that humans produced humans.......(3)

    By (1) information comes into my mind that other things of world created by energy. ........(4)
    [I will also give you a source it is a fact or fiction]

    By (2),(3) and (4) together I got everything in the world is created by matter or humans

    I have more arguments against this information theory itself

    If information were fundamental, we could use it for improving the standard model of physics.
    if the universe were a simulation, simulations are never perfect, so it might be possible to detect, at extreme levels of precision, fuzziness, bugs or even errors in the fine measurements of physics, E.g. drifts in core constants

    But I really want to end the debate about how God could act in the natural world here, because – if He exists – it really makes no sense to wonder how He does things. This is all just a waste of time wether you argue for or against God...

    Yeah nibba, imagining an entity is not a fact

    For second which is already self cause makes him already irrational

    I think we have said everything that could have been said about the problem of self-cause. I have nothing to add.

    I have added ^

    Asking yourself why God has put certain laws in place is nonsense, since (if He exists) you cannot possibly understand God's reasoning.

    'You cannot know' is not an argument to believe in something who is beyond our perception

    I did not say that. It is just an argument against Russels argument, that's all. Not an argument for God's existence.

    I was reading interpretion of bible from some website, Your interpretation is very different to that one so it is not my mistake 😞

    No, it is not your fault. No need to assume, you can simply ask me 😊

    You need to know that basically there is

    • the catholic church, which is the oldest and biggest church with the most followers. I am catholic and I do believe that the Lord will not mislead his church in its teachings. Also the catholic church is the one that tries to integrate reason and science into its teachings the most.
    • the orthodox churches basically share the same teaching, but their method is not as scientific
    • the Anglican church who also shares the same teaching, but in recent years has basically left most of its old morality behind
    • and then there are 20.000 protestant denominations, who basically originate from Martin Luther's teachings. They all have their own teachings, and you'll find truth as well as the greatest BS if you read their stuff. Its basically meaningless to even throw yourself in there. You'll never reach the end of the discussions of who's right.

    Also, he will send me in hell if I do some sins. I will not do those sins because I'm afraid of going to hell. Isn't it against free will ?

    • People of all ages who believed in God and believed in hell did still sin and also good. So it does not make a practical difference...

    "If God made man in his image, why good doesn't stop him to do evil ?''
    If good thing like god does evil things, then he is not good anymore, he is evil.

    • You only go to hell if you do not accept God's mercy. Jesus after all came to save us from hell. Its basically also your free choice.

    By mercy I have one more argument
    If he was merciful, why everyone in this world has pain, sorrow and fear. Someone has fear of death, someone has sorrow of losing her wife and someone has pain from his disease. Why not God sends his mercy to everyone of them ? What he is doing ? After-all they are his children. Aren't they ? Where is he sitting after creation of the world ?

    And last but not least, the catholic teaching about hell is the following: When you die, you see God who is absolute love, peace and joy. You also get to see your own deeds through God's eyes. This is judgement. Then you get His mercy offered to you for the final time. You now have the choice to accept his judgement and his mercy, or say: you have no right to judge me. If you don't accept His mercy, you don't accept Him. This means you will be without Him, which means you will be without love, peace and joy. And being without God, being without anything good (for God is all good) is hell. The love you did not accept burns hotter than you could ever imagine.

    I could not understand why he doesn't send his mercy when we are living. ( it is irrational to errone)

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    When cause aka god itself is doubtful its effect will also be doubtful
    its result will also be doubtful

    We have the effects and the results. It is what we perceive. So we are thinking in the other direction.

    Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder?
    Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter?
    Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker?
    If you answered YES for any of the above, give details

    I don't get where you are going with this. Of course not.

    The car, painting and building are effects of human, not of God (this is what we perceive)

    If i did put nature in the first cause it would be the the most rational argument for disproving the God. Because energy or matter is not created or destroyed by anyone. Nobody could cause it. It would be itself cause .

    That matter or energy does not get created or destroyed is a scientific consensus (not a fact!), and it is limited to this universe only. And it is not rational to say that nature causes itself, for how can anything cause itself? The most rational (though not completely rational) thing you could say, is that nature has no cause and is eternal.

    Are you kidding me ?
    It is a fact not only scientific consensus
    Energy always conserved even though our universe is expanding
    Meanwhile energy just changes its form, it doesn’t create more energy
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

    In the end I'd describe how atheism is rational and theism is irrational
    Assume you are sitting in a library and it is restricted to go its terrace. You go to that library daily. Once a ceiling fan falls.
    There might be two probabilities behind this accident-

    1. Law of motion
    2. Someone
      Until here theism is somehow rational but not more than atheism because if someone caused the accident, he could born with body. Whereas law of motion was apparently perceived and only some irrational people would think god A.K.A. an imagining entity is beyond this accident (It is ofc ludicrous for us 😂)
      You would ask who is there ? But nobody replies you. You got a habit of asking daily but still anyone from terrace does not reply. Here you imagine an unseen entity. You pray to your god daily but he never replies you. But you still think he is there. How theism is rational 😂 ?

    Actually He does reply to many, especially in our times (the times of the second pentecoste). Yeah, the imiginative entity is answering. The imaginative entitiy is even making predictions that come true. Like this message here which predicts the world trade center by exactly 10 years to the day. But of course that might be the collective unconscious or sheer chance. I cannot persuade you to believe, it is your choice 🤷

    This message was created by a human in 1998 and he updated it on 9-1-2019 http://i.imgur.com/icBHrKz.png.
    But your link says message was written in 1991
    What a manipulator lmao !
    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Law of entropy says our universe is expanding faster and faster. Even though energy is finite and our universe is closed it still can spawn more energy space. Positive energy pushes space outward. When space expands, it releases gravitational potential energy which is already stored up. It converts into the intrinsic energy that fills the newly created volume. Expansion of the universe is controlled by law of conserved energy actually.
    Our current universe is expanding and reserved energy is filling the space of it (it is a fact not only scientific consensus). However new energy is not creating but changing its form to do so. ......(1)

    Read the first answer on quora on why I call it a scientific consensus: https://www.quora.com/Have-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-been-proven. I know this is not a scientific paper, but since I'm not a scientist this is the best I could come up with in this short amount of time. Kirill Nenartovich (the guy who wrote it) added a few links where you can read more.

    "If God made man in his image, why good doesn't stop him to do evil ?''
    If good thing like god does evil things, then he is not good anymore, he is evil.

    We are not evil things. But freedom, as explained, is much much much more valueable than having only the choice of doing good.

    By mercy I have one more argument
    If he was merciful, why everyone in this world has pain, sorrow and fear. Someone has fear of death, someone has sorrow of losing her wife and someone has pain from his disease. Why not God sends his mercy to everyone of them ? What he is doing ? After-all they are his children. Aren't they ? Where is he sitting after creation of the world ?

    God's mercy is about letting you be with Him. He gives himself. And he does that in all the pain, sorrow and fear. This is when we are closest to him. When we carry our cross.

    I could not understand why he doesn't send his mercy when we are living. ( it is irrational to errone)

    He does all the time. Sinners go to confession, and then they get to be with God again. In death is just the last moment.

    Are you kidding me ?
    It is a fact not only scientific consensus
    Energy always conserved even though our universe is expanding
    Meanwhile energy just changes its form, it doesn’t create more energy
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

    As you can read in the quora answer, the second law of thermodynamics was recently challenged multiple times.

    And the first law cannot be proven. It's kinda like God except that you call it a fact 😂. Don't call it a fact. Get a real education.

    This message was created by a human in 1998 and he updated it on 9-1-2019 http://i.imgur.com/icBHrKz.png.
    But your link says message was written in 1991
    What a manipulator lmao !

    This is just the online version of the message, duh. The original message was handwritten in 1991. I have a printed version of it – translated to german – that was printed in 1993. Of course I cannot send you a link to that. I could only send you a photo.

    How about you don't accuse me of anything without fact checking first? I bet even in india you could get your hands on a version that was printed before 2001 if you tried hard enough...



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)

    You cannot be sure that God did not answer your classmates. You know that people don't like being talked to by God? Its because you'll be made fun of for it, and turned into a laughing stock (or worse 😒). I bet they wouldn't have told you... 😋

    But yes, they are not reliable. In fact there are many people who definitely hear nonsense in their heads. But that does not exclude the possiblity of God actually speaking to some. Especially if He then goes ahead and predicts things that actually happen. Go and check that private revelation I sent you the link if you don't believe me. Get an old copy and read whats written in there. I did exactly the same thing, when I heard about this for the first time... (wasn't too hard for me though, since my mom had this old copy since forever)


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    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Law of entropy says our universe is expanding faster and faster. Even though energy is finite and our universe is closed it still can spawn more energy space. Positive energy pushes space outward. When space expands, it releases gravitational potential energy which is already stored up. It converts into the intrinsic energy that fills the newly created volume. Expansion of the universe is controlled by law of conserved energy actually.
    Our current universe is expanding and reserved energy is filling the space of it (it is a fact not only scientific consensus). However new energy is not creating but changing its form to do so. ......(1)

    Read the first answer on quora on why I call it a scientific consensus: https://www.quora.com/Have-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-been-proven. I know this is not a scientific paper, but since I'm not a scientist this is the best I could come up with in this short amount of time. Kirill Nenartovich (the guy who wrote it) added a few links where you can read more.

    The first pdf had a 404 error but I still checked from somewhere else
    You came up with no argument for your facts/information theory which I pointed out earlier

    "If God made man in his image, why good doesn't stop him to do evil ?''
    If good thing like god does evil things, then he is not good anymore, he is evil.

    We are not evil things. But freedom, as explained, is much much much more valueable than having only the choice of doing good.

    By mercy I have one more argument
    If he was merciful, why everyone in this world has pain, sorrow and fear. Someone has fear of death, someone has sorrow of losing her wife and someone has pain from his disease. Why not God sends his mercy to everyone of them ? What he is doing ? After-all they are his children. Aren't they ? Where is he sitting after creation of the world ?

    God's mercy is about letting you be with Him. He gives himself. And he does that in all the pain, sorrow and fear. This is when we are closest to him. When we carry our cross.

    I could not understand why he doesn't send his mercy when we are living. ( it is irrational to errone)

    He does all the time. Sinners go to confession, and then they get to be with God again. In death is just the last moment.

    Are you kidding me ?
    It is a fact not only scientific consensus
    Energy always conserved even though our universe is expanding
    Meanwhile energy just changes its form, it doesn’t create more energy
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

    As you can read in the quora answer, the second law of thermodynamics was recently challenged multiple times.

    And the first law cannot be proven. It's kinda like God except that you call it a fact 😂. Don't call it a fact. Get a real education.

    Whatever source you gave me I checked
    But first law of thermodynamics is proved. Before saying someone about real education how about you ? Did you really get that education ?
    Have you ever checked what were the fallacies of your own 'information is primary concept' ?https://www.space.com/29477-did-information-create-the-cosmos.html

    Now read this-https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-proof-of-first-law-of-thermodynamics

    This message was created by a human in 1998 and he updated it on 9-1-2019 http://i.imgur.com/icBHrKz.png.
    But your link says message was written in 1991
    What a manipulator lmao !

    This is just the online version of the message, duh. The original message was handwritten in 1991. I have a printed version of it – translated to german – that was printed in 1995. Of course I cannot send you a link to that. I could only send you a photo.

    How about you don't accuse me of anything without fact checking first? I bet even in india you could get your hands on a version that was printed before 2001 if you tried hard enough...

    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)

    Yes, they are not reliable. In fact there are many people who definitely hear nonsense in their heads. But that does not exclude the possiblity of God actually speaking to some. Especially if He then goes ahead and predicts things that actually happen. Go and check that private revelation I sent you the link if you don't believe me. Get an old copy and read whats written in there. I did exactly the same thing, when I heard about this for the first time... (wasn't too hard for me though, since my mom had this old copy since forever)

    Also you cannot be sure that God did not answer your classmates. You know that people don't like being talked to by God? Its because you'll be made fun of for it, and turned into a laughing stock (or worse 😒). I bet they wouldn't have told you... 😋

    When I will get that printed version I would discuss it
    They do not want to tell or not only they know
    They want to conceal anything or not only they know not me



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    The first pdf had a 404 error but I still checked from somewhere else
    You came up with no argument for your facts/information theory which I pointed out earlier

    It's just a speculation of some scientists as of yet. Not a theory.

    Whatever source you gave me I checked
    But first law of thermodynamics is proved. Before saying someone about real education how about you ? Did you really get that education ?
    Have you ever checked what were the fallacies of your own 'information is primary concept' ?https://www.space.com/29477-did-information-create-the-cosmos.html

    I repeat: It's just a speculation of some scientists as of yet. Not a theory. Other scientists argue against it. This is the normal scientific process...

    Now read this-https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-proof-of-first-law-of-thermodynamics

    None of the answers are any proof. They simply state the law, the mathematic formulars and the fact that it wasn't disproven in any way. Go to university and ask a real scientist for a proof of the first law of thermodynamics (especially if the whole universe is the "system") if you don't believe me. Ask him specifically if it can be proven beyond doubt.



  • @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    When I will get that printed version I would discuss it

    Okay! Looking forward to it. 😊


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    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    When I will get that printed version I would discuss it

    Okay! Looking forward to it. 😊

    I couldn't find that message's old copy because Christians barely reside here.
    For one second, I assumed it was her original revelation in 1991. She may have multiple personality disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder or may be she was also a cunning personality. Moreover I can say he copied those astrologers, change some words and labelled Jesus. (Just like you tried to trace uncaused cause and labelled it with God. But radioactive decay of uranium atom has no cause ) September 2001 attacks were predicted by Nostradamus (an astrologer) in 1555.

    The sky will burn at forty-five degrees latitude,
    Fire approaches the great new city
    Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up
    When they want to have verification from the Normans.

    Baba Vanga predicted tsunami, 9/11 and end of universe. In future, don't get easily misguided by anyone.
    She predicted 9/11 attacks in 1989 on USA (two years ago of that cunning girl's astrology)

    Check it out for more

    Yes of-course God was unable to save his people from his own fake astrology because he never made one. If he really made one, why he would not save his children ?

    He shouldn't have used people for his argument there, since theists claim that people have free choice, and that therefore evil cannot be blamed on God.

    But God is said to be all-powerful. He cannot stop evilness of anyone, that means he is not all-powerful. Even though, a human is more powerful than him. You proved my point again.

    God's mercy is about letting you be with Him. He gives himself. And he does that in all the pain, sorrow and fear. This is when we are closest to him. When we carry our cross.

    When you were talking about mercy I could bring up some data.
    36.9 million people are suffering from HIV/AIDS.
    300 million people are suffering from depression.
    163.5 per 1,00,000 men and women are dying from cancer.
    One in four Americans develop insomnia each year.
    Where is his mercy ? Why doesn't he give his mercy to them ? Were you trying to say all those people rejected God ? Those all are not evil.

    Recently tropical storm Barry started lashing Louisiana. 90 percent people follow christian religion, 2 percent people follow other religions there. Why authorities rushed to close floodgates and raise the barriers around the New Orleans metropolitan area of 1.3 million people for fear of disastrous flooding ? Why couldn’t people trust on their God ? People who were living low-lying areas along the Gulf-coast were told to leave and finally they left. Why they left those areas ? Why didn’t God save them ? Prayers went in vain. Eh ?
    He is unable to stop even a human-caused natural disaster flood. He is an impotent

    I wished you could show me some valid scientific experimental evidences like this for god's existence. Even though their difficulty level is high but afterall a single difficult valid experiment can make someone a theist.

    Don't call imagination is a fact or atheism is a belief like an illiterate fuck.

    Belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without evidence.

    You believe that god is true without any evidence. You have just an evidence 'your faulty bible' that's first edition does not exist anymore and Moses doesn't even know how and when God made Adam and Eve. Moreover, you had only a 'first cause' argument which can be easily denied by quantum physics.

    We have a great amount of evidences which are demonstratively valid. We have evidences that this universe is made from dark matter(26.8%), atoms(4.9%) and dark energy(4.9%). A real scientist cannot prove bigbang because it is impossible for him to bring those conditions in lab. Asking for prove bigbang in lab is senseless. But he holds none evidence against it either. We have 98% evidences and 2 percent are remaining only. I don’t need all that superstitious nonsense. I look over the evidence—and see no reason to conclude a god exists. No magic, no superstition, no faith required. I'm an empiricist and those evidences are more than enough for me.

    You tried to prove that atheists killed more people than theists. By the way Communism was not started for the name of atheism. Nazism wanted to transform the subjective consciousness of the German people—their attitudes, values and mentalities—into a single-minded, obedient "national community". The Nazis believed they would therefore have to replace class, religious and regional allegiances. Stalin was brought up in an Orthodox Seminar as a Christian; and he became a new kind of Tsar,—with absolute power.
    Thirty percent of the wars started for religious reasons. And rest 70% were not started in the name of atheism, but rather border disputes, land conquering, revenge, or for resources.

    Around 800 AD, Charlemagne, Emperor of the “Holy Roman Empire” slaughtered 4500 Saxons, specifically on religious grounds,—because they would not renounce their harmless ancestral gods. Nothing directly to do with politics, but only of having a rival religion.
    99.9% of the inmates were religious in USA
    alt text

    I cannot answer this question for I do not know Spinoza well enough. But he clearly was wrong about claiming that scientific research could lead you to God 🤷

    His God was nature and the scientific research really leaded him to God. It was his personal God thou.

    This one is true. But it does not disprove God.

    Every effect has its precedent cause. We can name anything the first cause to prevent the infinite chain further. Even I can write down my name instead. How doesn't it disprove the God ? Can you say I'm God with first cause argument ? Do you hold any evidences to put God in first cause ? After-all we have matter in our body, isn't it enough for showing first animal (not human) was effect of it ? I take the name of Animal because there was no first human.

    However it requires you again to reason about God's reasoning, which – in case He exists – is not something that we could possibly do and arrive at the truth...

    Then what is the reason of this debate ? When your human reasoning is not enough to conclude what God is, how you can call yourself a theist. It clearly disproves theistic God mr. parker, if it does not, then prove him. Theistic God does not live in space-time, he is bodiless and works on 'something from nothing'.

    It is also true, that since there is no disproof of God, and quite a bit of evidence of things He does (however inconclusive), it is also rational to assume that God is.

    None is rational evidence of him except of fear and terror. I bet you became christian after reading some genesis of punishment. He does things because people have some physiological disorders. Christians buy anything on the name of religion. Want me to show a video ? I will show you jealousy of your God
    alt text

    So I would say it is fair to call atheism a belief, just as it is fair to call not believing in God rational.

    Ahem ahem. Then show me a single demonstrable evidence of him. We have evidences, you have nothing. Scientists have discovered that the matter which planets, people, galaxies, plants, animals have, is 13 billion years old. This is a fact, dude ! Particles appear, reappear, disappear in empty space too. Duh, the whole process can be measured with lamb shift and casimir effect. God is not measurable !

    "All kinds of" is an idiom. It does not have to mean "all", it usually means "many". This was just a side note of little importance, please forget about it.

    I gave you an example of probability and see you are agree with me. The first definition was actually based on probability.

    In fact christianity is the only religion that grows through conversion in our time and age. There are 10.000 babtisms every day in china alone.

    Argumentum ad populam- my religion is the best because we are gaining followers fast
    Christian is a non-logical religion. I can point out 100 contradictions and whole book is full of errors and omissions. Read some books of early Jainism and early Buddhism. You will find some logical things in them.

    This is not true. People always believed things. Religion is as old as humans. People have wondered what happens after death forever. People exploiting this deep need inside people's heart came after the fact.

    People believed in moon and sun too. They were living objects for ignorant like you.
    People used to think the Earth was the center of the universe and that the entire cosmos revolved around it. We now realize, however, that this was just something dreamed up by ignorant people who knew very little about the universe and our place in it. Well, at least most of us realize this today.
    People used to think that diseases were caused by “bad air” and that mental illness was the result of demonic possession. We now realize, however, that this was just something dreamed up by ignorant people who knew very little about the universe and our place in it. Well, at least most of us realize this today. And yet, some people cling to the concept of “gods” despite the obvious fact that it was also the product of ignorant superstition dreamed up by people living thousands of years ago who knew very little about the universe and our place in it. It gives them comfort, it gives them hope, they are indoctrinated to believe in it from birth, and the very concept of “God” has been redefined along the way to supposedly make it impossible to ever prove that God doesn’t exist.

    Last but not least, I don't know when you reply it. Can you prove in lab how you were born ? It is impossible for bring those conditions in lab when you were born. I don't hold none evidence against your existence either. Same logic goes for bigbang because it is impossible for bring those galaxies, planets and other conditions back in lab. Bigbang is unable to prove that our universe is multiverse, finite and infinite so you cannot definitely say first law is only applicable to this universe. We can assume matter was primary cause because all those planets, galaxies, humans, plants, animals are consisted of matter. We have seen God was not fitting in secondary cause (he must have a body to work on that and he could not form final cause 'world' in parts just like a potter forms a pot into 6 parts) and we have 13 billion years old matter. How matter could come into us if matter was not primary cause ?
    By the way you think this law is limited to only our universe and your god is transcendent cause, then why would he waste so much matter to create empty space ? Even if multiverse exist and he breaks natural laws, he cannot be secondary cause again. Did you know maker of chaotic inflation clearly said, "multiverse is impossible in past but is possible in future" ?
    If he was first cause, then this whole first-cause argument is suffering from existential fallacy.
    P1-God creates humans (your imagined assumption)
    P2- Humans create cars ( A fact)
    C-God creates cars (denied by fact humans made cars)
    Your conclusion with first cause- God creates everything (existential fallacy)

    If we again put him in first cause, we need to give him some properties like omnipotence, omniscience, goodness. After-all we want to end the chain with a terminator and to prevent infinite regress. Just because we want one term to terminate the chain and we can label it with any name. God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent. Therefore, there is no reason to put him in first cause. Those properties are conflicting each-other in every sense.

    Bigbang was a process in which everything started from a photon without violating any law. We need two things to create this universe- 1. matter, 2. space. Matter is a stuff that has a mass. With equation of E=MC^2 mass can be thought of as a kind of energy, and vice versa. At the moment of the Big Bang, an entire universe came into existence, and with it space. It all inflated, just like a balloon being blown up. Questions can be raised up like where that space and energy came from ? How can something appear out of nothing ? This is the mystery which Bigbang could not answer. For revealing this mystery, natural laws demand here - “negative energy”. E.G. Imagine a man wants to build a hill on a flat piece of land. The hill will represent the universe. To make this hill he digs a hole in the ground and uses that soil to dig his hill. But of course he’s not just making a hill—he’s also making a hole, in effect a negative version of the hill. The stuff that was in the hole has now become the hill, so it all perfectly balances out. This is the principle behind what happened at the beginning of the universe. When bigbang produced a vast amount of (+)ve energy, it produced (-)ve energy simultaneously. The (+)ve and the (-)ve sum up to 0, this is again a natural law. For ensuring everything, adds up to o, we can glimpse at our space. Space is vast amount of (-)ve energy. Today, negative energy is there. Everything sums up to 0, so we do not require a creator or God here. That total energy of 0 does not violate first law. It is a fact again. This universe is ultimate free launch. People like you ask who caused photon ? I answer them nobody. Cause-effect relationship states an event precedes other event. Then first event is the cause of second event. Time did not exist before bigbang. It is impossible when cause can exist without time. God cannot be cause of this universe. Just because time did not exist, there is no time for God to make the universe in. Also, natural laws are natural laws, they imply for everyone. If God violated those laws, they would not be called laws.

    BS atheism does not have a holy book. Nor does it has a doctrine. Don't call it faith. Athe is not a guy like christ. We don't have any institute or church 😂.

    The point is the regularities. Everything happens for a reason. Evolution happens because certain traits favor survival. There is a reason to why everything works the way it does. There is a reason for why gravity is as strong as it is (scientists traced this back to the conditions in the big bang). There is a reason for why there is gravity. There is a reason for everything in nature.

    There is no reason of quantum particles. They are something from nothing.
    Order should not be referred to the regularity in nature. This is demonstrably false.
    To say that the same thing acting on the same thing under the same conditions may yet produce a different effect, is to say that a thing need not be what it is. But this is in flat conflict with the Law of Identity. A thing, to be at all, must be something and can only be what it is. To assert a causal connection between 'a' and V implies a acts as it does because it is what it is; because in fact, it is a. So long therefore as it is 'a', it must act thus; and to assert that it may act otherwise on a subsequent occasion is to assert that what it is 'a' is something else than the 'a' which it is declared to be.


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    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Law of entropy says our universe is expanding faster and faster. Even though energy is finite and our universe is closed it still can spawn more energy space. Positive energy pushes space outward. When space expands, it releases gravitational potential energy which is already stored up. It converts into the intrinsic energy that fills the newly created volume. Expansion of the universe is controlled by law of conserved energy actually.
    Our current universe is expanding and reserved energy is filling the space of it (it is a fact not only scientific consensus). However new energy is not creating but changing its form to do so. ......(1)

    Read the first answer on quora on why I call it a scientific consensus: https://www.quora.com/Have-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-been-proven. I know this is not a scientific paper, but since I'm not a scientist this is the best I could come up with in this short amount of time. Kirill Nenartovich (the guy who wrote it) added a few links where you can read more.

    The first pdf had a 404 error but I still checked from somewhere else
    You came up with no argument for your facts/information theory which I pointed out earlier

    "If God made man in his image, why good doesn't stop him to do evil ?''
    If good thing like god does evil things, then he is not good anymore, he is evil.

    We are not evil things. But freedom, as explained, is much much much more valueable than having only the choice of doing good.

    By mercy I have one more argument
    If he was merciful, why everyone in this world has pain, sorrow and fear. Someone has fear of death, someone has sorrow of losing her wife and someone has pain from his disease. Why not God sends his mercy to everyone of them ? What he is doing ? After-all they are his children. Aren't they ? Where is he sitting after creation of the world ?

    God's mercy is about letting you be with Him. He gives himself. And he does that in all the pain, sorrow and fear. This is when we are closest to him. When we carry our cross.

    I could not understand why he doesn't send his mercy when we are living. ( it is irrational to errone)

    He does all the time. Sinners go to confession, and then they get to be with God again. In death is just the last moment.

    Are you kidding me ?
    It is a fact not only scientific consensus
    Energy always conserved even though our universe is expanding
    Meanwhile energy just changes its form, it doesn’t create more energy
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

    As you can read in the quora answer, the second law of thermodynamics was recently challenged multiple times.

    And the first law cannot be proven. It's kinda like God except that you call it a fact 😂. Don't call it a fact. Get a real education.

    Whatever source you gave me I checked
    But first law of thermodynamics is proved. Before saying someone about real education how about you ? Did you really get that education ?
    Have you ever checked what were the fallacies of your own 'information is primary concept' ?https://www.space.com/29477-did-information-create-the-cosmos.html

    Now read this-https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-proof-of-first-law-of-thermodynamics

    This message was created by a human in 1998 and he updated it on 9-1-2019 http://i.imgur.com/icBHrKz.png.
    But your link says message was written in 1991
    What a manipulator lmao !

    This is just the online version of the message, duh. The original message was handwritten in 1991. I have a printed version of it – translated to german – that was printed in 1995. Of course I cannot send you a link to that. I could only send you a photo.

    How about you don't accuse me of anything without fact checking first? I bet even in india you could get your hands on a version that was printed before 2001 if you tried hard enough...

    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)

    @pe7erpark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    @Electrifying-Guy said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:

    Also, we have already discussed such personal experiences are not reliable. They can be their illusion or manipulation because I studied myself in a catholic school (St.Anslem’s) where christian prayers we practiced everyday after our assembly but he never spoke to any of us. (It was not a hindu god, it was abrahmic god aka jesus)

    Yes, they are not reliable. In fact there are many people who definitely hear nonsense in their heads. But that does not exclude the possiblity of God actually speaking to some. Especially if He then goes ahead and predicts things that actually happen. Go and check that private revelation I sent you the link if you don't believe me. Get an old copy and read whats written in there. I did exactly the same thing, when I heard about this for the first time... (wasn't too hard for me though, since my mom had this old copy since forever)

    Also you cannot be sure that God did not answer your classmates. You know that people don't like being talked to by God? Its because you'll be made fun of for it, and turned into a laughing stock (or worse 😒). I bet they wouldn't have told you... 😋

    When I will get that printed version I would discuss it
    They do not want to tell or not only they know
    They want to conceal anything or not only they know not me

    Scientists these days have been wondering very deeply what the universe is at the bottom level. What are quantum particles really? The only thing we really know about them (apart from their existence) are their mathematical and statistical properties

    i can prove how they travel from A to B or A to C. Do you want me to prove it with casimir effect and lamb shift ? Even a 12yo kid knows what quantum particles are. We know they are real but you dont admit it, it is your assertion.

    None of the answers are any proof. They simply state the law, the ma thematic formulas and the fact that it wasn't disproved in any way. Go to university and ask a real scientist for a proof of the first law of thermodynamics (especially if the whole universe is the "system") if you don't believe me. Ask him specifically if it can be proven beyond doubt.

    Multiverse is just a speculation, not a scientific fact. We have two probabilities before bigbang- finite and infinite/multiverse. Our universe is an isolated system. The (entire) universe is an isolated system. The observable universe is an open system.
    There are 3 main types of thermodynamic systems, defined by what the system can exchange with its surroundings:

    • An open system can exchange both energy and matter.
    • A closed system can exchange only energy.
    • An isolated system cannot exchange anything.

    The entire universe, meaning everything there is, including things we cannot see, is an isolated system because it has no "surroundings"; it's literally everything there is. Obviously, a system cannot exchange energy or matter with "surroundings" that do not exist.
    The observable universe, meaning only the part of the universe that we can see, is an open system, because the "boundary" of our observable universe is not actually a physical "boundary" in any possible meaning of the word, and both matter and energy can freely pass through it.
    What I mean is that our observable universe has a "boundary" because if something is beyond this "boundary", the light from it has not had time to reach us yet (and may never will). Aliens living on the "boundary" of our observable universe will have their own definition of "observable universe" and it will not be the same as our definition, because there are things in the universe they can see that we can't, and vice versa.
    Finally, we should discuss the hypothetical "multiverse". Although there are many speculative theories hypothesizing some kind of multiverse, none of them have been verified experimentally and they are not considered to be scientific fact, just pure speculation.

    Also check a post i made for you.
    https://chatrooms.talkwithstranger.com/post/261248
    and then this one-https://chatrooms.talkwithstranger.com/post/258551
    Some people adhere to a stupid doctrine. Therefore, they cannot even read science or philosophy 😂
    Let me prove first law for you
    Since there is no theory available in which time has been created twice, first law never violates. For a theory about the universe to violate first law, the theory must stipulate two distinct points in time (call them T1 and T2 such that the total energy of the universe at T1 and the total energy of the universe at T2 do not match one another. The creationists like you implicitly assume that bigbang theory stipulates a time t <0 before the origin of universe at which there was no energy at all (because the universe didnt exist); the argument then contrasts this with the origin of the universe, after which it presumes that there has been a pos net bal of energy (because the universe exists)
    Assuming you consider bigbang is not false, ill solve from both prospective 1. Quantum gravity alone 2. Gen relativity

    1. If we use GR alone, then the origin of the universe is also the origin of spacetime. On this iew there can be no such thing as a time t <0. But if there is no time t <0 when there was no energy, then the presence of any amount of energy at t=0 cant violate first law. According to aquinas, your god is transcendental cause who does not live within space time, he can't create universe in. Cause and effect relationship demands actions with time.
    2. If we add quantum mech to the pic, then we are faced with lee smolins options covered - a. There is still a first moment in time; b. The universe continues indefinitely into the past; c. Time breaks down slowly in the universe. Scene a, doesnt violate 1st law for the reasons discussed above. Scene b doesn't violate first law as long as the total energy of the universe remains constant at all times; unsurprisingly, models that actually fall under scene b respect the first law. Im still unclear about exactly how scene c is supposed to work, but if there is no succession of time in the early universe, then it would seem that the first law cant apply to early universe either.
    3. If the universe came from something else (for instance it started as a region of spacetime pinching from a black hole in another spacetime, as proposed by smolin in 1997) then there still would be no conflict with the 1st law, because on such a scenario the universe was not always always a closed system, and would have inherited its initial energy from wherever it came from.
    4. The universe may have a net energy or zero- even proposals like that of tyron 1973, that have the universe appearing spontaneously in an empty spacetime wouldnt violate first law if the universe has an overall energy of 0. Strange as it may sound for the universe to have 0 total energy, it may be true: the gravitational energy of the universe is a neg quantity, which may bal the rest of energy in the universe, leaving a net bal of 0 energy. This would occur in a so-called 'flat universe'. As physicist lawrence krass explains- "in terms of GR, the curvature our expanding universe is related to the total gravitational energy of the objects being carried along with its expansion. In a flat universe, the total energy is 0. So a flat universe could've arisen from nothing. One can trade off the pos energy of gravity and move from a situation in which there are no particles to one with a lot."
      As it turns out, results from WMAP, have confirmed that "the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error".

    Quantum mechanics, string theory, gen relativity and inflation all are theories. Scientific models for pre-bigbang conditions, are based on those above proved theories. Why don't you check out latest evidences of cosmos universe ?
    Now simulation speculation is not based on any scientific theory. Dragging a speculation in a debate like it, is fallacy of special pleading. There are 1 lc speculations in science which are not based on any theory. Simulation speculation is filmed in movies 😂. Simulation speculation is just a claim. There is none verifiable evidence of it. Why would any programming team create cancers that only strike toddlers, flesh-eating bacteria, brain-eating amoeba? For fun ?
    You cannot demonstrate me of no cause god or no cause simulation. We are humans and we gain knowledge with two sources (in philosophy).

    1. Empirical - i can demonstrate you no-cause particles and no-created energy. I have 100 demonstrations for both. You have 0 no-cause demonstration for simulation or god. Thus I win
    2. Non-empirical- we can assume with first law in any circumstance, is proved. You cannot win with first cause argument here because time is not within his reach and difference between material cause and efficient cause is too deep. I win again. 😉

    Remember, when you abuse someone, he can abuse you twice or thrice (like I did). Next time write anything before thinking twice or I will count them as fallacies like - argumentum ad hominem,

    But I will refute your every claim you have made in this topic so that you might not think I avoided you

    It makes no sense to try and reason about what he can and can't do, since it is impossible to understand Him.

    When it is impossible to understand someone, you cannot say the free will is given bey him or sufferings are there because someone rejected God.

    In other words: you have to exempt something from having a cause, whether that is God or nature.

    Differentiate among efficient cause, material cause and final cause. I replied to Rihoy and used four causes in above post. In my philosophical model, there is no efficient causes. Therefore an orderer is not required like Aquinas' first cause. Orderer is necessary for order not for chance

    Natural laws are not self-caused (gravity does not cause gravity, it causes things to fall down) and thus you cannot have shown that they are self-caused.

    Gravity is not an efficient cause, go read some philosophy. Gravity did not create energy, it just expanded the universe.
    Demonstrate me authority of supernatural power over natural power right now. The theory of quantum electrodynamics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as she is — absurd.”

    Thus assuming that God does not exist requires you to be at least a bit irrational about how you think of nature, as I have shown in the topic.

    You have shown nothing to me and yet you think of it. It must be noted 'my god did it' is fallacy of 'God of gaps' or 'argument from ignorance'. You repeated either fallacy a dozen of times in this topic.

    Even by percentage per year communism has a higher number of victims than any of the big religions (even including islam).

    I do not know why you cannot differentiate two terms. 1st term is political and 2nd is religious.

    Yes people have pointed to lots of those things. Agreed that is irrational. I however have pointed to something that cannot ever be explained by science, something that has to be irrational (the origin of existence) and as you can see you were not able to convince me. But I think we can stop here. We have both said everything we could have said about the topic.

    I am so gleeful I mentioned this argument for you. There is no difference between you and them. In that era they do not know how rain falls onto the ground and science was not providing them explanations. When science does not give you explanations, theism always look for meaning rather than explanation. Theism always adores this gap. Naturalism is opposed to theism, it waits for a new explanation.

    And it is not a question of who is more intelligent. Every atheist will agree that this conundrum is indeed irrational, once she understands what I am talking about. It's just like with mathematics: you have to agree that 1+2 = 2. Before you understood it, you might not have agreed, but once you understand it, you have no choice.

    twoness in two is its property. Property cannot be reduced to existence. I can find out a number which is greater than two, then 2 cannot be said greatest like God. In other words, numbers analogy to causal relationships of world is flawed.

    And I mean what should they do about it? They have two irrational choices, believe in God or an eternal irrational world. Of course they'd chose what their peers chose: atheism..

    I chose the position as an agnostic atheist. Debate with a strong atheist next time for why he says God is disprovable. Again, you suck at differentiate among two or more terms. I say God's existence is improbable. I bet you have not met even a single atheist in your whole life, some atheists even believe in satan, dragons or aliens. There are many many choices in which people can believe in. I'm not one of them but providing some data to you, was necessary.

    If you think I hadn't convinced you or defeated you yet, you would have asked to me. I know you'll be back.

    if you still think his existence is probable, give me a demonstration of your claim 'he does inconclusive things". Give me a demonstration - he can make particles or energy.

    @Sij Atheism defines there is no God, it does not say world is true. I do not know when theists will understand what atheism is. But again, nobody can prove God's existence in this whole effing world. I challenge every theist here. It is matter of your faith. Let me disprove theistic God wholly. It is actually a divine fallacy because he didn't think about remain probabilities. If world is true, then god is false. If god is false, then world is true. - flawed

    Premise1- It is a fact that every efficient cause creates everything in space-time.
    Premise 2- God does not reside in space-time. (this is what Aquinas said)
    Conclusion- God creates nothing.

    In the end, I'd talk about your wish 'multiverse' - Because time started with the Big Bang, any question of what happened before is nonsensical — much like asking what is north of the North Pole. Also, many cosmologists have proposed that our universe could be part of a much larger, super and perhaps eternal meta-universe. In this meta-universe (a.k.a. multiverse) “baby” universes are created by pinching off from “parent” universes — leaving no way to inquire about the characteristics of a parent universe. We certainly don’t know for sure, and may never know. However, this meta-universe would allow infinite chains of events. If God was eternal, perfect and unchanging then why would God need a universe and how could God change from not needing a universe to needing and creating one? This god would have existed for an eternity and then decided to create the universe. Thus, the Creator God that is eternal, perfect and unchanging is impossible.

    'We do not know' this is the base of your premises mr.Parker. Everything you want to stabilize on 'we do not know' is argument from ignorance. Mysticism and revelation have no place in logic and if you do not think so, give me a demonstration of anyone's reveal-ism.

    There is excellent experimental and theoretical evidence to support Inflation Theory. We may eventually determine that Inflation Theory is wrong or incomplete, and we may never be able to completely understand the actual beginning. It could be that we're not smart enough or that the physical science necessary is not possible for us to do. But, that doesn’t mean that a god caused the Big Bang — any more than our past lack of understanding of weather meant that a god caused lightning.

    Btw answers based on speculations are counterfactual fallacy nibba. Therefore I didnt want to even know what happened before bigbang. Whenever I and we you will discuss about it, we will repeat agumentum ad speculatum. And you dragged me to write about multiverse and finite universe, it wasnt my own choice.

    Go get a real education

    Argumentum ad hominem

    Last thing, you cannot demonstrate me God causes gravity law. Can you ? I can demonstrate you law of identity in natural laws such as motion law, gravity law and kepler law etc. The law of identity states that if a statement has been determined to be true, then the statement is true. For example, if I make a statement that 'It is gravitating,' and it is the truth, then the statement must be true. If we look at the law of identity in more general terms, it says that each thing that exists is made up of its own particular characteristics that are a part of what it is. Nature has its characteristics without meddling by an efficient cause, nature does it things itself, that is what i was saying. When you apply this to logic, the law of identity essentially means that everything is itself and it cannot be something else. Gravity cannot be tree and water cannot be pole. Each thing is something specific that has a particular identity. So when I say that it is gravitating, gravitating refers to a particular event. Given that 'gravity' refers to a specific thing such as apple, if I make this statement while it is actually gravitating, then it must be a true statement. In logical discourse, violations of the law of identity result in the informal logical fallacy known as equivocation. And again there was no time before gravity to exist for a cause. No time for efficient cause to create universe in.

    The last post which you upvoted, was typed by some stupid person. I study in a commerce university and it is impossible to find a scientist in my own university. Here universities have strict rules, they didnt permit me to enter a gate of a science university (I hope you know rules). Therefore i gave my email account and tws password to their gatekeeper. I did not even know when and who typed that post. I got to know when liliputian upvoted my past. So i deleted it. And i was never agree with that stupid person. I apologise for this inconvenience to you. You too said me to ask a university scientist so it was not my mistake wholly. 🙏.



  • So to stop beating around the bush and I guess what everyone is trying to avoid saying here so here you go... Atheists believe that aliens created us and that the gods B. C. We're aliens. Why does no one really talk about this? I was raised an atheist and I am a 43 year old woman and this subject still seems very much about one god... Not anything really about atheism...








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